US "friendly fire"
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Any friendly fire incident is to be deplored, but let's not forget that the British record isn't too hot.
# A British Army Gazelle was shot down by a Royal Navy missile during the Falklands War, with the loss of three men, including two of my own Corps, one of whom was Major Mike Forge.
# In the Malayan Emergency in the 1950s there were several examples of patrols from one unit encountering patrols from another unit and in that very close-quarter campaign he who fired first generally survived, so.....
# RAF Lancasters bomber British forward positions near Caen in 1944.
# The British armed forces have been trying to develop a reliable device to prevent such incidents since 1992 and are still talking....and talking....and talking.
Having said all that, the F-15 is just too fast and too complex for such a task, especially when the targets are very, very close to own troops.
# A British Army Gazelle was shot down by a Royal Navy missile during the Falklands War, with the loss of three men, including two of my own Corps, one of whom was Major Mike Forge.
# In the Malayan Emergency in the 1950s there were several examples of patrols from one unit encountering patrols from another unit and in that very close-quarter campaign he who fired first generally survived, so.....
# RAF Lancasters bomber British forward positions near Caen in 1944.
# The British armed forces have been trying to develop a reliable device to prevent such incidents since 1992 and are still talking....and talking....and talking.
Having said all that, the F-15 is just too fast and too complex for such a task, especially when the targets are very, very close to own troops.
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I hope anyone who reads the stories realises that "friendly fire" incidents do and will occur. However, it is IMHO imperative that each and every incident (and near miss) be investigated swiftly and promptly to ensure that action is taken to take account of any possible lessons. For an enquiry already 6 or more months old to be ongoing is unacceptable - the lessons should have been promulgated within days, not years.Foureyes wrote:Any friendly fire incident is to be deplored, but let's not forget that the British record isn't too hot.
# A British Army Gazelle was shot down by a Royal Navy missile during the Falklands War, with the loss of three men, including two of my own Corps, one of whom was Major Mike Forge.
# In the Malayan Emergency in the 1950s there were several examples of patrols from one unit encountering patrols from another unit and in that very close-quarter campaign he who fired first generally survived, so.....
# RAF Lancasters bomber British forward positions near Caen in 1944.
# The British armed forces have been trying to develop a reliable device to prevent such incidents since 1992 and are still talking....and talking....and talking.
Having said all that, the F-15 is just too fast and too complex for such a task, especially when the targets are very, very close to own troops.
As for the specific incidents mentioned, did the Gazelle have ID Friend or Foe equipment tuned to UK forces wavebands? Was the missile equipped to recognise such ID or did it simply hit anything with a hot exhaust?
Malaya - you are talking about National servicemen whose training left something to be desired - not professionals ; I wonder if half of them even knew accurately where they were or had effective radio communication. Moving in jungle is very navigation unfriendly.
Caen: gain, communications, lack of accurate navigation and fast movement on the ground.
In each case there are possible logical reasons, some of which have been addressed by things like sat navigation. "talking since 1992" simply ensures that those involved keep getting paid and in a warm office without their being required to make decisions which they might later be required to justify.
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
I agree, but these incidents are often very difficult to analyse and these days soldiers and airmen move into and out of threatre very quickly, and disperse to different countries, making the collection of evidence very difficult. I agree that the enquiry should be fast and that over 6 months is too long, but there are practical difficulties. In another field, look at how long police enquiries go on for before someone is charged - or not, as in the murder of the unfortunate Lieutenant-Colonel Workman, still unsolved after five years.sejintenej wrote:I hope anyone who reads the stories realises that "friendly fire" incidents do and will occur. However, it is IMHO imperative that each and every incident (and near miss) be investigated swiftly and promptly to ensure that action is taken to take account of any possible lessons. For an enquiry already 6 or more months old to be ongoing is unacceptable - the lessons should have been promulgated within days, not years.
Gazelle - I will have to come back to you on that.
It is not correct to say that Malaya was a National Serviceman's war. There were a lot there certainly and they proved to be first-rate soldiers by any standard - for example, 1st Suffolk Regiment (led, incidentally, by an Old Blue, who was widely considered to be one of the finest commanding officers of his generation). But, the majority were professional soldiers, including, of course, the Gurkhas, RAR, Fijians, etc. The fact is that, for professionals and National Servicemen alike, visibility was so short, some contacts so unexpected and the necessary response-time so brief that accidents did happen. There were also several cases where platoon commanders put their men into an ambush, issued a firm instruction that "the next thing that moves is an enemy" and after several hours decided to go round his men to make sure they were alert and they were!sejintenej wrote:Malaya - you are talking about National servicemen whose training left something to be desired - not professionals ; I wonder if half of them even knew accurately where they were or had effective radio communication. Moving in jungle is very navigation unfriendly.
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... e?EMC-Bltn
Obviously the Americans don't care a damn about what UK personnel they kill - it is simply a case of giving them a weapon and allowing them to build up their personal score of kills.
Obviously the Americans don't care a damn about what UK personnel they kill - it is simply a case of giving them a weapon and allowing them to build up their personal score of kills.
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
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Pin the word "War" on a situation and you can pretty much do what you please.....
There is no war in Iraq, though... Where is the Iraqui army?? Er.. Surrendered ages ago. At home with their wife and kids (where most of the Jarheads want to be too), trying to ignore the bl**dy American soldiers with guns all over the place.
"Went to get a loaf of bread, some grunt searched me, then punched me a bit, then let me go.... Didn't really hurt, but I wouldn't mind punching him back sometime.. Maybe I'll have a chat with my neighbours. We can always use some stones from the ground. Some of us may get shot, but we don't want to be pushed around any more. OK. We have had some bad leaders in the past. But we have been here for thousands of years, we have our own cultural identity, we love our land. I tried a McDonalds McTagine the other day because I want to try this new American democracy. I also had a Kentucky Fried Chicken. Terrible, how can Americans eat this food? We must try to accept this American way of life, but it will be hard. Our traditions are not the same. They do not understand us, nor do they try... They shouldn't have hit my grandma, though. I had no nuclear weapons. I told them this when they came in the middle of the night. But they still arrested me. I was away from my family for 3 weeks. They played me American music by The Slayer in my cell and I could not sleep. It frightened me. This American music talks of Hell. If this is their culture we do not want it, it speaks of evil. We are not evil. We are not terrorists. We are simply people."
Iraq is pure and simple an occupied country, much like Poland and France during WW2..... A few insurgents and the odd resistance group does not an Iraqui army make, so who are we fighting exactly? Also, who are we "protecting" and if we are protecting someone, what are we protecting them against?? ....... Perhaps the people we are protecting are those who own the oil wells.... perhaps we are protecting the oil wells themselves? The ones we stole off the "terrorists", you know, "Al-Quaeda types" posing as oil businessmen whilst stockpiling conceptual, rhetoric based "nuclear weapons of mass terror destruction".
Terror. Fear. Terror. "Heightened state of terror", "Amber Terror Alert", "Be vigilent".... "Do not leave unattended items anywhere on this station. Unattended items will be removed and may be destroyed".. "Right, off to Guantanamo with you" .. "Oops, you aren't a terrorist, sorry.... No, we can't give you the year of hell and torture back... Moan to Bono about it, not us... ".
Protecting our "way of life"... Um.... How far away is Iraq from America? What's the threat, exactly? If someone can tell me the EXACT threat from Iraq, then I'll maybe support our occupation.....
You have a bunch of bored, trigger happy soldiers confused about what they are doing so far away from home. STILL, with nothing much to do, and they see a British tank...... Yee Haw, A Tank.. Shoot it.... Oops... Er, it's war, though... Sorry British guy's family, butwhatcanyado?
A joke. Through and through...
There is no war in Iraq, though... Where is the Iraqui army?? Er.. Surrendered ages ago. At home with their wife and kids (where most of the Jarheads want to be too), trying to ignore the bl**dy American soldiers with guns all over the place.
"Went to get a loaf of bread, some grunt searched me, then punched me a bit, then let me go.... Didn't really hurt, but I wouldn't mind punching him back sometime.. Maybe I'll have a chat with my neighbours. We can always use some stones from the ground. Some of us may get shot, but we don't want to be pushed around any more. OK. We have had some bad leaders in the past. But we have been here for thousands of years, we have our own cultural identity, we love our land. I tried a McDonalds McTagine the other day because I want to try this new American democracy. I also had a Kentucky Fried Chicken. Terrible, how can Americans eat this food? We must try to accept this American way of life, but it will be hard. Our traditions are not the same. They do not understand us, nor do they try... They shouldn't have hit my grandma, though. I had no nuclear weapons. I told them this when they came in the middle of the night. But they still arrested me. I was away from my family for 3 weeks. They played me American music by The Slayer in my cell and I could not sleep. It frightened me. This American music talks of Hell. If this is their culture we do not want it, it speaks of evil. We are not evil. We are not terrorists. We are simply people."
Iraq is pure and simple an occupied country, much like Poland and France during WW2..... A few insurgents and the odd resistance group does not an Iraqui army make, so who are we fighting exactly? Also, who are we "protecting" and if we are protecting someone, what are we protecting them against?? ....... Perhaps the people we are protecting are those who own the oil wells.... perhaps we are protecting the oil wells themselves? The ones we stole off the "terrorists", you know, "Al-Quaeda types" posing as oil businessmen whilst stockpiling conceptual, rhetoric based "nuclear weapons of mass terror destruction".
Terror. Fear. Terror. "Heightened state of terror", "Amber Terror Alert", "Be vigilent".... "Do not leave unattended items anywhere on this station. Unattended items will be removed and may be destroyed".. "Right, off to Guantanamo with you" .. "Oops, you aren't a terrorist, sorry.... No, we can't give you the year of hell and torture back... Moan to Bono about it, not us... ".
Protecting our "way of life"... Um.... How far away is Iraq from America? What's the threat, exactly? If someone can tell me the EXACT threat from Iraq, then I'll maybe support our occupation.....
You have a bunch of bored, trigger happy soldiers confused about what they are doing so far away from home. STILL, with nothing much to do, and they see a British tank...... Yee Haw, A Tank.. Shoot it.... Oops... Er, it's war, though... Sorry British guy's family, butwhatcanyado?
A joke. Through and through...
MAINE A/B 1981 - 1986
BRING BACK BAKER
BRING BACK BAKER
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what you mean is: if we leave now, the insurgency is going to kill everybody. let's look at the facts:ben ashton wrote:bring them back=screw even more iraqis
even the head of the army says the war cannot be won.
thus the longer we stay there, the longer people on both sides will be killed.
if we leave, there will be a momentary power vacuum, which will lead to lots of people dying during that time. HOWEVER, there is one prevalent group so the power vacuum will be short lived. end result: the sooner we pull out (because we're gonna have to at some point anyway), the sooner the power vacuum will be filled, the sooner the reason for killing is taken away, and the sooner people will stop dying!
typical tory response: "yeah but they'll form a dictatorship and stuff"
full marks john bull. they will indeed, but show me another arab country with democracy. also, being run by the US army is hardly democracy.
another typical tory response: "yeah but if we leave then they'll have a whole country to plan terror in and stuff"
they would. but so what? there are already scores of countries that can do that already. but the hate that terrorism feeds off (and without it it would all but die out) comes from the US invading countries, killing hundreds thousands of people, claiming to be the moral victors and then f'cking off again. if they pulled out, admitted they were wrong, promised never to be naughty boys and girls again, and compensated the iraqis just a little bit of what they owe them, you watch and see the terrorist's support drain away.
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Hendrik,Hendrik wrote:what you mean is: if we leave now, the insurgency is going to kill everybody. let's look at the facts:ben ashton wrote:bring them back=screw even more iraqis
even the head of the army says the war cannot be won.
thus the longer we stay there, the longer people on both sides will be killed.
if we leave, there will be a momentary power vacuum, which will lead to lots of people dying during that time. HOWEVER, there is one prevalent group so the power vacuum will be short lived. end result: the sooner we pull out (because we're gonna have to at some point anyway), the sooner the power vacuum will be filled, the sooner the reason for killing is taken away, and the sooner people will stop dying!
typical tory response: "yeah but they'll form a dictatorship and stuff"
full marks john bull. they will indeed, but show me another arab country with democracy. also, being run by the US army is hardly democracy.
another typical tory response: "yeah but if we leave then they'll have a whole country to plan terror in and stuff"
they would. but so what? there are already scores of countries that can do that already. but the hate that terrorism feeds off (and without it it would all but die out) comes from the US invading countries, killing hundreds thousands of people, claiming to be the moral victors and then f'cking off again. if they pulled out, admitted they were wrong, promised never to be naughty boys and girls again, and compensated the iraqis just a little bit of what they owe them, you watch and see the terrorist's support drain away.
Good to see you back on form!
I'm no defender of the Tories but let us not forget that a LABOUR government committed us to this immoral war.
Your comments about a "typical Tory response" are therefore inappropiate in these circumstances.
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