Dining hall birds

[Foureyes]

I had to go to a funeral on Tuesday at which one of the deceased's sons wore his medals.

No doubt the son wore the medals as a proud tribute to his father, but surely at a funeral the deceased's medals (full-size not miniatures) should be place upon the coffin and then removed as the cortege leaves the chuch to move to the burial ground or crematorium?

[J.R.]

Still off topic, but on medals, I'm sure my cousin told me, (he was a WO1 in the I Corps), that any 'Other Ranks' who had been awarded the VC had to be addressed officially as 'Sir', even by officers.

I might be wrong though - I have been before !

[Fjgrogan]

Still off topic! Neill, you ask whether an interest in family history is a sign of maturity - hardly so, I think. I started on mine at the age of 14, and in some parts have not got a lot further in 50 years. The trick is to ask lots of questions of the oldest members of the family while they are old enough to feel nostalgic, but not yet old enough to be totally gaga!

[John Knight]

Back on topic....
For the last two years of my time at CH I went out with one of the "Dining hall birds".
Her name was Josie, lovely girl, and I still think of her to this day.

[loringa]

Still off topic, but on medals, I'm sure my cousin told me, (he was a WO1 in the I Corps), that any 'Other Ranks' who had been awarded the VC had to be addressed officially as 'Sir', even by officers.

I might be wrong though - I have been before !

I don't think this is the tradition in the UK Armed Forces but in the US all holders of the Congressional Medal of Honor enjoy the status of a five-star general or flag officer and are shown the appropriate marks of respect pertaining to that rank. I think that we may be moving towards a similar approach in the UK and I, for one, would welcome it as entirely appropriate.

[Katharine]

Still off topic, but VC holders. Most of the time I was at CH my father was vicar of High Cross near Ware, we had a double VC holder buried in the churchyard, Arthur Martin Leake. see http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/do ... _cross.htm

I knew a VC was a very high honour but I had no idea there were just three who had won it twice. Apparently Dr Martin Leake was appointed to a First Aid station in Hertford during the second war and is reputed to have said "How will I earn a second bar there?"

[sejintenej]

I had to go to a funeral on Tuesday at which one of the deceased's sons wore his medals.

No doubt the son wore the medals as a proud tribute to his father, but surely at a funeral the deceased's medals (full-size not miniatures) should be place upon the coffin and then removed as the cortege leaves the chuch to move to the burial ground or crematorium?

Wrote that badly. The son wore medals which he, the son had been awarded. The deceased did National Service and, even if he was in Malaya (I don't know) he would not have received those ones or so many

[Foureyes]

loringa said:

"...in the US all holders of the Congressional Medal of Honor enjoy the status of a five-star general or flag officer and are shown the appropriate marks of respect pertaining to that rank. I think that we may be moving towards a similar approach in the UK and I, for one, would welcome it as entirely appropriate."

With respect, I don't think this is entirely accurate. I agree that any CMOH winner enjoys certain priviledges, such as special uniform allowances, enhanced pension, extra travel facilities, burial at Arlington (if not otherwise qualified), etc, but these are common to all recipients regardless of rank. This is rather different from saying that they enjoy the status of a five-star general, because, as far as I know they do not.

As to saluting, that is a US military custom or tradition, but is not stipulated in regulations. Presumably, it is only observed if the CMOH holder is wearing his/her ribbons.

I have a good friend in the US Army and am checking.

Should the British do it? I have met two VC holders and am all for giving such courageous people all due respect and certainly feel that they should be given priviledges to go with their award. But saluting? I think that would cause embarassment on all sides, i.e., as much to the salutee as to the salutor.

[sejintenej]

re: Congressional Medal of Honor holders

As to saluting, that is a US military custom or tradition, but is not stipulated in regulations. Presumably, it is only observed if the CMOH holder is wearing his/her ribbons.

I have a good friend in the US Army and am checking.

Should the British do it? I have met two VC holders and am all for giving such courageous people all due respect and certainly feel that they should be given priviledges to go with their award. But saluting? I think that would cause embarassment on all sides, i.e., as much to the salutee as to the salutor.

If it were to be accepted practice I cannot see that a VC or GC holder being saluted by all others should be a cause of embarrassment. Indeed it would be a mark of respect to such a person. I would even add in the GM that whether or not the award was in respect of action in a military or civilian situation.

There are many signs of respect which seem to be disappearing;
- in theory when a doctor of medicine becomes a consultant then the Dr disappears and it becomes Mr (or female equivalent). Ditto a surgeon.
However, in our local practice all the dental surgeons are now entitled Dr instead of Mr. which seems wrong since they are by definition qualified as surgeons.
- Your man in the street is Joe Bloggs until he deserves some respect and becomes MR Joe Bloggs; he might even go further and be addressed in writing as Joe Bloggs Esq but all that politeness has dosappeared

It is my understanding that in the US Army a Warrant Officer is not referred to by rank but as Mr so-and-so. Another mark of respect. Correct or fiction?

[englishangel]

There are many signs of respect which seem to be disappearing;
- in theory when a doctor of medicine becomes a consultant then the Dr disappears and it becomes Mr (or female equivalent). Ditto a surgeon.
However, in our local practice all the dental surgeons are now entitled Dr instead of Mr. which seems wrong since they are by definition qualified as surgeons.
- Your man in the street is Joe Bloggs until he deserves some respect and becomes MR Joe Bloggs; he might even go further and be addressed in writing as Joe Bloggs Esq but all that politeness has dosappeared

It is my understanding that in the US Army a Warrant Officer is not referred to by rank but as Mr so-and-so. Another mark of respect. Correct or fiction?

NO, a consultant in medicine remains a Dr. consultant surgeons (and often senior registrars) do change back to Mr. because surgeons in former times were not medically trained.

[Foureyes]

sentinej wrote:

"...It is my understanding that in the US Army a Warrant Officer is not referred to by rank but as Mr so-and-so. Another mark of respect. Correct or fiction?"

We are venturing into deep waters! Yes, that is correct for the US Army, but are you suggesting that the British Army does not have a similar system? If so....
In the British Army, there are many varieties of Warrant Officer Class One, all of whom are addressed as "sir" by anyone of a subordinate rank. How they are addressed by officers is a matter of regimental custom. The Regimental Sergeant-Major is addressed as "Mr" in some regiments, as "RSM" in some, as "Sergeant-Major" in some, but always with respect. Other WO1s may be addressed by their specialisation, eg in the Royal Signals a Foreman of Signals is addressed as "Foreman" and a Yeoman of Signals as "Yeoman", etc. Similarly there are various types of Warrant Officer Class 2, who, again, are addressed according to regimental custom.
In fact, it would be true to say that warrant officers are treated with all the respect due to officers, except that they are not saluted and are members of the Warrant Officers and Sergeants Mess, rather than of the Officers Mess.

PS This seems a far cry from "dining hall birds" but there we are!

[LongGone]

Can any recent OB comment on whether the dining hall is still infested?

[J.R.]

Can any recent OB comment on whether the dining hall is still infested?

That could open a 'can-of-worms' !

[postwarblue]

Wrong about doctors. Surgeons are always Mr as they descend from the barber surgeons of old. Consultant PHYSICIANS are Dr, just as they were when they were House Officers. Dentists adopted Dr a little while ago so as to be equal to fang-farriers in Europe and the US etc.

[J.R.]

... as are veterinary surgeons Doctors.