Who would you Shop?

This section was setup in August 2018 in order to move the existing related discussions from other sections into this new section to group them together, and separate from the other CH-related topics.

Moderator: Moderators

robert totterdell
GE (Great Erasmus)
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:58 pm
Real Name: Mr Robert G S Totterdell

Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by robert totterdell »

This covers the entire range of time that I have been able to look at (I decided to ignore pre WWII). The last case that I am aware of is dated Nov 2019 but a claim of a second issue Feb 2020 pre lockdown.

Can't say much more - sorry.
User avatar
graham
Deputy Grecian
Posts: 281
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:07 pm
Real Name: Graham Slater
Location: Chicago, IL USA

Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by graham »

Thanks Robert - that’s all I wanted to know. It’s very upsetting to hear, though, that these crimes continue to occur despite the flux of recent, public prosecutions and the apparently more robust safeguarding measures that have been implemented since I left in the late nineties.
Graham Slater
Maine B 1990 - 1993, Thorn A 1993 -1997
rockfreak
Grecian
Posts: 972
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:31 pm
Real Name: David Redshaw
Location: Saltdean, East Sussex

Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by rockfreak »

Robert's comment on recent accusations is interesting because the boarding school lobby (such as the Independent Schools Council) has been very vocal recently in telling us that this kind of thing has been clamped down on heavily since the Jimmy Saville affair along with the institutional abuse being investigated by the IICSA. Maybe, maybe not. One of the things that those psychologists who study this have pointed out is that many people who have been abused do not feel confident enough to go public about their experiences until a bit later in life. Either when they feel more confident in themselves as adults or when they have their own children coming up to boarding school age. So that accusations might not emerge until much later.
sejintenej
Button Grecian
Posts: 4092
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:19 pm
Real Name: David Brown ColA '52-'61
Location: Essex

Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by sejintenej »

rockfreak wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:29 pm many people who have been abused do not feel confident enough to go public about their experiences until a bit later in life. Either when they feel more confident in themselves as adults or when they have their own children coming up to boarding school age. So that accusations might not emerge until much later........
If at all. I think Robert mentioned something about a hundred cases and he has said that he knows of cases where the victim feels he cannot come forward.Looks to me like only a small fraction of cases are known about
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
robert totterdell
GE (Great Erasmus)
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:58 pm
Real Name: Mr Robert G S Totterdell

Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by robert totterdell »

I think I may have stated 100 cases sometime back. I am afraid to say if we take pupils rather than court counts I can say that at least 249 pupils were abused between 1949 and 2017. There are more. It is over a 1000 counts (thus I had two counts brought forward against Burr and one set aside).

I am covering a very long period and it can be hard to actually establish whether the facts match up to claims but these figures seem pretty accurate when one considers 57 victims at St Pauls over just 15 years.

I try to establish as much factual evidence as I can. The trouble is the level of or type of abuse: A teacher rubbing up against a pupil (known as grinding) is legally sexual abuse. So think of a rugby referee who accidentally comes into close contact with a player. Was it accident or deliberate? If it happens more than once it would be conceived as Sexual Abuse.

I have tried to look at more direct cases - a master putting his hand down the shirt etc. To give an example, I know of a victim (because I witnessed some of it) who has decided not to come forward, where Burr touched his abdomen as well as other lower parts, every Sat (and some Wednesdays) for the whole of the Michaelmas, Lent and Summer terms Sept '69 to Jul '70. And then again most of the next year, although he moved on to the next intake. Just one victim but of multiple counts. Time moves on and memory gets blurred so I only specifically remembered three incidents but I am aware that Burr 'touched me up' pretty regularly.

Rob
sejintenej
Button Grecian
Posts: 4092
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:19 pm
Real Name: David Brown ColA '52-'61
Location: Essex

Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by sejintenej »

robert totterdell wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:13 am I think I may have stated 100 cases sometime back. I am afraid to say if we take pupils rather than court counts I can say that at least 249 pupils were abused between 1949 and 2017. There are more. It is over a 1000 counts (thus I had two counts brought forward against Burr and one set aside).

I am covering a very long period and it can be hard to actually establish whether the facts match up to claims but these figures seem pretty accurate when one considers 57 victims at St Pauls over just 15 years.
Thanks, Rob. Wow; 249 different pupils!!!! I slightly discount he number of allegations in that just one case is one too many;it really comes down to numbers of pupils (as above) and the number of alleged adults.
If Burr had touched one boy 100 times would the sentence have been longer than if he only did it once? I very regretfully think that each touch would not have been dealt with separately.
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
robert totterdell
GE (Great Erasmus)
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:58 pm
Real Name: Mr Robert G S Totterdell

Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by robert totterdell »

It's a bit complicated. If there are numerous counts relating to one victim they will usually (that is the CPS) pick a few including the most serious, but also others to show the continuation/repetition and leave the rest to 'lie on file'. Where there other victims they will treat there case seperately so if just one count they will bring that usually to about 4 or 5 depending how serious the counts are. What they can not do is bring forward charges based on hearsay, thus in the Webb 2015 case he was asked whether he had committed further abuse on other children? When he was sentenced in 2017, Judge Henson brought this up and again he was asked if there were more. The Judge (Randel?) in the 2020 case brought it up again and was pretty strong in his condemnation of Webb for refusing to admit this case given his track record. But that can not influence the sentence which based on the counts that are pleaded guilty to or found guilty of.

Then there is the issue of Concurrent & Consecutive sentencing. In the Burr case the Appeal Court Judges felt that two of his counts were severe enough to have warranted a sentence that would be the same as all of the other counts put together. So they extended his sentence by making these two counts Consecutive. By extending the sentence rather than increasing it (I think it is that way around) he now has to face a parole board whereas Karim with a 10 year sentence will not although he doesn't have automatic half term (half sentence released on Licence - but then he will remain on licence for life anyway). As far as I can ascertain only Burr will face a Parole Board. This will come to whether it is felt the perpetrator is a threat to society. Burr will not be seen as that (if he is as charming as he was - he is still very crafty in what he says from the two notes to me via a third party) and will get Parole. My issue is how he is monitored. And why is that a concern for me? Well it is what I know about his activities after his leaving CH that concerns me. I would say that Burr never changed his spots!

Hope that this helps.
Post Reply