Elizabeth Cairncross

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Peele94
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by Peele94 »

Hi, I just found this thread after googling Cairncross today after I saw she liked 8 of my tweets today! I have a few thoughts:

1) At CH in the 80's and 90's, I experienced sexual, physical and psychological abuse, that resulted in PTSD.

2) I also, like some others, often went without food, and even today, food can be a trigger for me.

3) I'm now an abuse advocate.

4) I am gutted that neither Poulten, Ciarcross or Sillet have had to answer for what happened at CH. Although I have forgiven them, along with my abusers.

5) During my 7 years at CH, I never said to any of my friends, 'I am being abused.' So when people say, they don't think it happened in their time, please bear in mind that's not conclusive evidence. I tried telling my housemaster, and the consequences were so bad that I just kept quiet after that. I also didn't have the vocabulary of 'abuse' then. It took many years before I could speak about what happened, and use the 'abuse' word.
Otter
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by Otter »

Peele94 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:17 pm I am gutted that neither Poulten, Ciarcross or Sillet have had to answer for what happened at CH. Although I have forgiven them, along with my abusers.
Yes, this is a scandal in itself.

After the facts that emerged repeatedly across the numerous criminal trials, it is also unacceptable to me that Sillett still has his MBE and that Cairncross is flitting from one educational/governor's job to another and unashamedly maintaining a high public profile and social media presence. She clearly thinks she is untouchable - and maybe she is, as she keeps getting hired by people who, through the vetting that is carried out for those kinds of posts, cannot possibly be unaware of the trials and thus of her inaction regarding CH abuse. My only conclusion is that she is friends with the right people. She might not have committed a criminal offence but her (in)action should make her unemployable in any setting of care ever again.
Peele94 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:17 pm During my 7 years at CH, I never said to any of my friends, 'I am being abused.' So when people say, they don't think it happened in their time, please bear in mind that's not conclusive evidence. I tried telling my housemaster, and the consequences were so bad that I just kept quiet after that. I also didn't have the vocabulary of 'abuse' then. It took many years before I could speak about what happened, and use the 'abuse' word.
I hear you. I was not abused and was unaware of anything, but from the dates, descriptions and specific staff members involved in the trials, I am 100% sure that the victims include my immediate peers in my boarding house. It is awful imagining what must have been going through their minds as they lay in their beds a few feet away from me, and being unable to tell anyone (or telling the likes of Cairncross or Powell and getting ignored or threatened).

I am so sorry to hear of your experience and wish you well.
robert totterdell
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by robert totterdell »

Firstly can I just thank you for those last two posts and to all who have posted on this subject and all the abuse subjects. I'm at present restricted as to what I can say but feel the aspect of those who stood by, whilst in a senior position, with regards to abuse of various sorts at CH is something that I can comment on.

Sillett has far more powerful connections than you might imagine. I did write to the Cabinet Office with regards to his MBE on the basis that his activities at CH, throughout his career there, brought the Honours System into disrepute (this the jargon you have to use when making the complaint).

It was ignored - well no that is not quite true. It was blocked and I can't say by who. He has powerful friends.

Cairncross has been 'researched' closely. Even though she has made misjudgments in her positions of safeguarding, she hasn't committed a Criminal Offence. I have been unable to get a witness or person who is able to show Criminal negligence in her actions, anywhere. She too has very powerful friends, noticeably within the C of E. Having just helped with a formal complaint against a Diocese, I am very much aware of how they still 'close ranks' despite the IICSA investigation into the late Bishop Peter Ball (who Cairncross knew). Although we followed their set procedure they initially refused to allow the complaint to be handed in. When it was finally accepted they dismissed it on a debatable technicality. Luckily it seems to have found it's way to a Civil Court Judge.

A complaint about Cairncross has been made to the Bishop of Bristol (she is a lay Canon their) but it seems to have been disregarded as, after an initial reply, no follow up has been received.

You will know that I have brought up issues with other teaching staff at CH - certainly the Flemmings and Higgins have serious questions that they should have to answer, but there are others and the Chaplaincy comes out as the worst for what was allowed/supported/went on. But...even now I receive information from victims and OBs (and others) which join up the dots. For those like Cairncross their time of reckoning will come - I've already bought her one way ticket downwards, not up!

Rob - oh by the way Burr is having a very nice retirement back in Kingswear, Devon.
robert totterdell
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by robert totterdell »

I have sent the following letter to the Diocese of Bristol re Cairncross: (the spelling works on the email)

Dear Sarah,

I have been provided with your email address by a person who was a former pupil at Christ's Hospital School where Elizabeth Cairncross was the first CPO.

He has asked that you consider her position as a lay Canon within the Diocese given her background as a Safeguarding Officer in which duty she failed as her own evidence in court confirms.

You have not responded/followed up on the complaint.

I am a victim of Child Sexual Abuse at CH. I have spent over 4 years researching the abuse there and I am in contact with many of the victims, both those who have felt able to come forward to the police and those that are unable to do so.

The period that I have been able to cover is from 1949 to 2020. In that entire period only a few teaching staff have been named and shamed by victims but Cairncross is amongst the most criticised by victims. It was her job to protect the welfare of the pupils and she failed in the most spectacular fashion, putting herself first and their wellbeing last.

The fact, given the behaviour of the C of E concerning Peter Ball, that you still protect people who actively allowed sexual abuse at a school, blaming and intimidating the victim and taking no appropriate action against the perpetrator, is a disgrace. No, it's a bl**dy disgrace. You and the Church of England should be ashamed. Cairncross, who was happy to protect herself and her colleagues and the school rather than children being abused, is accepted in, and a minister of, the Church, even though the church must have seen the press on the court cases from CH, I, and others find, both incomprehensible and disgraceful and disgusting. I suggest that, perhaps you, the Bishop and the staff take a lot of time to pray for forgiveness on this.

I am now going to advise that, unless Cairncross is removed as a Canon and from any official position within the C of E within 30 days, I will have no option but to go public on this matter via the national press.

Yours sincerely

Robert G S Totterdell
bakunin
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by bakunin »

Thank you for the update and for writing those letters. I hope the press find Cairncross's failure to act of interest.
Last edited by bakunin on Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
loringa
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by loringa »

I think it might be time for a word to the wise. This issue is clearly very important to some of our contributors for reasons which are entirely understood and, I think, fully justified by the cases that have been prosecuted to date. It would, however, be sensible to remember that this forum is accessible to the Public and individual topics easily identifiable through a search on Google. Contributors would be well advised to be careful what they write as they and, potentially I believe, the Forum moderators could find themselves open to legal action for posting unsubstantiated material. For example, one post says of Ms Cairncross: It was her job to protect the welfare of the pupils and she failed in the most spectacular fashion, putting herself first and their wellbeing last.

There is evidence to support the first statement (objective), however, whether true or not, the second statement is far harder to prove (subjective). The lawyers on here would be better able to advise than I am the burden of proof required in a civil court but it would be an absolute tragedy if a victim of abuse were to find themselves in court for using intemperate language.

As a final comment, I very much doubt the request to have Mr Sillett's MBE revoked was blocked by anyone. I cannot think of a single example of this occurring without someone first being convicted or a crime and, I believe, imprisoned. Even the House of Commons was unable to revoke Sir Philip Green's knighthood.
Kiff
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by Kiff »

She can spend her pension on a civil case if she wants, but the victims will be queuing up in droves to give their evidence.
WiltshireChap
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by WiltshireChap »

loringa wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:38 am I think it might be time for a word to the wise. This issue is clearly very important to some of our contributors for reasons which are entirely understood and, I think, fully justified by the cases that have been prosecuted to date. It would, however, be sensible to remember that this forum is accessible to the Public and individual topics easily identifiable through a search on Google. Contributors would be well advised to be careful what they write as they and, potentially I believe, the Forum moderators could find themselves open to legal action for posting unsubstantiated material. For example, one post says of Ms Cairncross: It was her job to protect the welfare of the pupils and she failed in the most spectacular fashion, putting herself first and their wellbeing last.

There is evidence to support the first statement (objective), however, whether true or not, the second statement is far harder to prove (subjective). The lawyers on here would be better able to advise than I am the burden of proof required in a civil court but it would be an absolute tragedy if a victim of abuse were to find themselves in court for using intemperate language.

As a final comment, I very much doubt the request to have Mr Sillett's MBE revoked was blocked by anyone. I cannot think of a single example of this occurring without someone first being convicted or a crime and, I believe, imprisoned. Even the House of Commons was unable to revoke Sir Philip Green's knighthood.
All good advice. However, I am in possession of a transcript of the (over 1 hour) of evidence that she gave under oath in the Karim trial. That would leave no objective observer in any doubt that 1. she knew of abuse allegations, 2. She knew they were of substance. 3. The responsibility for referral to outside agencies lay with her personally and 4. There is no evidence that she ever made such a referral. She herself said under oath in the crown court that she ‘could not remember’ if she had referred the matter to police or social services. She clearly did not as no teacher in her position would have ever forgotten the maelstrom of attention that would have attracted. My personal view having read her evidence is that she was evasive and dishonest in the witness box.
loringa
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by loringa »

WiltshireChap wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:21 pm I am in possession of a transcript of the (over 1 hour) of evidence that she gave under oath in the Karim trial. That would leave no objective observer in any doubt that 1. she knew of abuse allegations, 2. She knew they were of substance. 3. The responsibility for referral to outside agencies lay with her personally and 4. There is no evidence that she ever made such a referral. She herself said under oath in the crown court that she ‘could not remember’ if she had referred the matter to police or social services. She clearly did not as no teacher in her position would have ever forgotten the maelstrom of attention that would have attracted. My personal view having read her evidence is that she was evasive and dishonest in the witness box.
Thank you Anthony.
Elvie
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by Elvie »

WiltshireChap wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:21 pm
loringa wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:38 am I think it might be time for a word to the wise. This issue is clearly very important to some of our contributors for reasons which are entirely understood and, I think, fully justified by the cases that have been prosecuted to date. It would, however, be sensible to remember that this forum is accessible to the Public and individual topics easily identifiable through a search on Google. Contributors would be well advised to be careful what they write as they and, potentially I believe, the Forum moderators could find themselves open to legal action for posting unsubstantiated material. For example, one post says of Ms Cairncross: It was her job to protect the welfare of the pupils and she failed in the most spectacular fashion, putting herself first and their wellbeing last.

There is evidence to support the first statement (objective), however, whether true or not, the second statement is far harder to prove (subjective). The lawyers on here would be better able to advise than I am the burden of proof required in a civil court but it would be an absolute tragedy if a victim of abuse were to find themselves in court for using intemperate language.

As a final comment, I very much doubt the request to have Mr Sillett's MBE revoked was blocked by anyone. I cannot think of a single example of this occurring without someone first being convicted or a crime and, I believe, imprisoned. Even the House of Commons was unable to revoke Sir Philip Green's knighthood.
All good advice. However, I am in possession of a transcript of the (over 1 hour) of evidence that she gave under oath in the Karim trial. That would leave no objective observer in any doubt that 1. she knew of abuse allegations, 2. She knew they were of substance. 3. The responsibility for referral to outside agencies lay with her personally and 4. There is no evidence that she ever made such a referral. She herself said under oath in the crown court that she ‘could not remember’ if she had referred the matter to police or social services. She clearly did not as no teacher in her position would have ever forgotten the maelstrom of attention that would have attracted. My personal view having read her evidence is that she was evasive and dishonest in the witness box.
can that transcript be shared?
WiltshireChap
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by WiltshireChap »

Unfortunately no it cannot.

In order to obtain access to it, I had to approach the trial Judge, Christine Henson QC and state my reason. The reason I gave was that I wished to investigate her fitness for a role as Chair of Governors at Salisbury Cathedral School. I undertook not to distribute the transcript to anyone outside that specific purpose. I also had to pay for the transcription which cost me close to £1,000 for this work. The judge gave me authority to access all witness evidence in the case and the restrictive nature of this direction from the judge was because the matters covered are of huge personal sensitivity to many of the witnesses who are entitled to protection from their identity etc being published or otherwise placed into the public domain.
Peele94
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by Peele94 »

Otter wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:51 am I am so sorry to hear of your experience and wish you well.
Thanks Otter
Elvie
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by Elvie »

WiltshireChap wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:32 am Unfortunately no it cannot.

In order to obtain access to it, I had to approach the trial Judge, Christine Henson QC and state my reason. The reason I gave was that I wished to investigate her fitness for a role as Chair of Governors at Salisbury Cathedral School. I undertook not to distribute the transcript to anyone outside that specific purpose. I also had to pay for the transcription which cost me close to £1,000 for this work. The judge gave me authority to access all witness evidence in the case and the restrictive nature of this direction from the judge was because the matters covered are of huge personal sensitivity to many of the witnesses who are entitled to protection from their identity etc being published or otherwise placed into the public domain.
Thanks, understood.
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by Avon »

WiltshireChap wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:32 am Unfortunately no it cannot.

In order to obtain access to it, I had to approach the trial Judge, Christine Henson QC and state my reason. The reason I gave was that I wished to investigate her fitness for a role as Chair of Governors at Salisbury Cathedral School. I undertook not to distribute the transcript to anyone outside that specific purpose. I also had to pay for the transcription which cost me close to £1,000 for this work. The judge gave me authority to access all witness evidence in the case and the restrictive nature of this direction from the judge was because the matters covered are of huge personal sensitivity to many of the witnesses who are entitled to protection from their identity etc being published or otherwise placed into the public domain.
An interesting statement. Is it too much to infer that:

Someone was sufficiently concerned to trigger an investigation whilst she was incumbent?
Someone had sufficient funds to bankroll this to the tune of £1,000?
Your case was sufficiently compelling to allow the judge to release material evidence?
The outcome was sufficient to remove her expeditiously from her post?
WiltshireChap
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by WiltshireChap »

Please see clarifications:

Someone was sufficiently concerned to trigger an investigation whilst she was incumbent?

It was a personal choice of mine and solely mine to investigate her propriety to be in a governance role and that was because I became aware the Ms. Cairncross had been appointed chair of governors at the day/boarding school which two of my daughters were attending. I was also aware of the criminality that occurred during Ms. Cairncross' tenure at Christ's Hospital and wanted to satisfy myself that the obvious failures of governance during that period were clearly not due to actions or inactions on her part. Or not.

Someone had sufficient funds to bankroll this to the tune of £1,000?

I paid this money personally. I had asked the Dean of Salisbury Cathedral (in whose gift the power to appoint the Chair of Governors at Salisbury Cathedral School lay) what due diligence had been undertaken prior to Ms. Cairncross' appointment. I received evasive responses which led me to suspect that none had been undertaken. Hence, I took the entirely personal decision to pay for this transcript. I feel very strongly that if someone is responsible for serious and sustained failures of governance that should disqualify them from holding future governance roles. I also feel strongly that everyone is entitled to due process and that Ms. Cairncross is no exception. I wanted to see if evidence existed from which it could be assumed on the balance of probabilities or to a greater degree of certainty that failures of governance were due to actions / inactions on her behalf

Your case was sufficiently compelling to allow the judge to release material evidence?

Evidently so.

The outcome was sufficient to remove her expeditiously from her post?

No. Ms. Cairncross announced her departure from the role at Salisbury Cathedral School before I had the opportunity to submit my findings to the Dean. I have no evidence that her departure was in any way connected to my personal investigation. In fact, I think it unlikely she knew of the investigations I was undertaking as I had not spoken widely about it.
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