What Doesn't Happen At CH These Days?

Anything that doesn't fit anywhere else, but that's still CH related.

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sejintenej
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Re: What Doesn't Happen At CH These Days?

Post by sejintenej »

time please wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 6:43 pm Rockfreak does it again! Trying to wind people up. Well I'll bite.

I disliked my time at CH I was not suited to the school and perhaps the school was not suited to me ( bit pompous but still...). The day Newsome suggested that I should leave felt that now my life is starting.
I had a job abroad as soon as I left CH - so soon that I had to walk out a few days early to catch the boat. I was summoned to the HM's house where, with bad grace Seaman mumbled the Charge, pushed a bible in my hands and pushed me out. Even going to see a few masters I got the impression that they thought I was being expelled. Definitely not a nice way to be got rid of and they expect me to be grateful
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
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Re: What Doesn't Happen At CH These Days?

Post by rockfreak »

Given that time please didn't enjoy his time there and found it pompous, what on earth is he doing contributing to it?

I've long believed that the history, tradition and grandiosity that the school promotes drags people in against their better judgment when they've long left and perhaps have a more rosy glow about having "survived" the place? Can I recommend you to James Brooke-Smith's book Gilded Youth which concentrates on the rebels and refuseniks over the years who have not bought in to this grandiose crap? Those who, like Odysseus, have had themselves bound to the mast in order to resist the song of the smooth, plausible, private school sirens?

Of course in other more civilised, social democratic western European countries, time please (and the rest of us) would be paying realistic levels of taxation for state education so that everyone got a fairer start in life. But I've long ago resigned myself to the inward-turning isolation and mindless traditions of this silly country of mine, which I think comes from being an island and from once having had an empire.
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Re: What Doesn't Happen At CH These Days?

Post by loringa »

rockfreak wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:15 pm Of course in other more civilised, social democratic western European countries, time please (and the rest of us) would be paying realistic levels of taxation for state education so that everyone got a fairer start in life. But I've long ago resigned myself to the inward-turning isolation and mindless traditions of this silly country of mine, which I think comes from being an island and from once having had an empire.
Ah yes, the issue of increased taxation has raised its head before on this forum. So by how much, exactly, would you raise taxes, which taxes precisely, and from whom would you raise them? What amount do you think would provide for the social-democratic paradise you envisage? We already have a highly progressive system of income tax but which rates would you increase: the top rate, the higher rate; what about the basic rate? Realistically, you would get more from raising the basic rate which pretty much everyone pays and it has gone down and down in my lifetime. For society to flourish you do need some form of risk and reward or it doesn't work. As an old leftie I am sure you were at least an occasional visitor to the Soviet Union, as was I. No risk and no reward other than to become a party apparatchik so one might eventually be allowed to visit a shop that sold things any corner shop in the poorest parts of the UK offered.

Which raises the same old question as to who exactly are these wealthy ones who will pay for your Utopia; what constitutes wealth exactly? Having benefited so hugely from a Christ's Hospital education I would imagine it includes most of us on this forum but where's the threshold? Socialists have long promised much but rarely specify where that money would come from; Mr Corbyn certainly provided absolutely nothing in the way of detail in that dim and distant past when he was still relevant.

Bottom line - like many, I would be prepared, and could afford, to pay more in taxes if I felt the money would be well spent. I would actively support an increase, for example, to National Insurance to pay for aged care but I would want it ring-fenced for that purpose I don't want it going into the pockets of politician's cronies, or being spent on yet another grandiose project for which the country has no need, or to smooth the way to an election victory in a marginal seat. I'd pay extra income tax to fund increased spending on schools or the NHS but I don't want it spent on unsuitable new school buildings which took up so much of the additional funding provided in the Blair / Brown years, however well meant. I don't want the money going into the pockets of management consultants to tell us what we already know, or to fund dubious behaviours required to meet meaningless targets.

I would like everyone in this country to get a fairer start in life and I would be happy to pay for it too but I have little confidence that just throwing money at the problem will solve it, and I doubt that many politicians of whatever political hue have the abilities to deliver what is required.

Excellent, rant over and now back to work!
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Re: What Doesn't Happen At CH These Days?

Post by AMP »

Parents should be able to spend their money as they see fit.
A lot choose to prioritise a private education over holidays in Spain.
In France, the middle classes tend to drive old bangers(no road tax for cars over 15 years old) and instead spend their money on education.
Over here, the chavs and the oiks are driving the latest BMWs and Mercs.
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Re: What Doesn't Happen At CH These Days?

Post by loringa »

AMP wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:42 pm Parents should be able to spend their money as they see fit.
A lot choose to prioritise a private education over holidays in Spain.
In France, the middle classes tend to drive old bangers(no road tax for cars over 15 years old) and instead spend their money on education.
Over here, the chavs and the oiks are driving the latest BMWs and Mercs.
Absolutely and that is us to a tee; I drive a 10-plate car and my wife's is on an 05-plate. Whilst they have let us down in the past; we manage just fine with these old bangers :-) We buy what we need and when we need it; are most certainly not early adopters of anything technical and, if it works, we keep on using it until it doesn't.

We chose to educate our daughter privately because the maintained sector was simply not doing what was required for her to develop her potential. It was our choice but we didn't make it lightly; I am not wedded in any way to the independent sector but it really was a case of needs must. Unfortunately, the maintained sector (or at least the National Education Union of which, for my sins, I am a reluctant member) still claims 5 GCSEs at Grade C (now 4/5) as some sort of 'gold' standard whilst, in reality, it would be much more appropriately seen as the threshold: good enough but by no means 'good'. Because my daughter was seen as on track for this standard the school she was in was simply not interested. Most of its efforts were aimed at those who were going to struggle to meet this threshold level; they didn't have a 'gifted and talented' stream of any sorts but even if they had I doubt my daughter would have qualified. She needs at least 2 A*s and one A at A-Level to get to Veterinary College; even with a contextual offer, which might be awarded but is by no means guaranteed if she went to our local academy, she would still be looking at 3 As.

For some reason, the far left simply do not wish to provide people with choices of any sort when it comes to education; it seems to be in their DNA as demonstrated in Mr Redshaw's frequent contributions on the subject. It appears to be the one thing that they won't let you spend your money on - anything else goes. Of course it isn't fair but life isn't fair; this at least sees the money going to something I consider worthwhile and not on a big, expensive motor vehicle, or a house in Spain!
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Re: What Doesn't Happen At CH These Days?

Post by Avon »

sejintenej wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:32 pm I had a job abroad as soon as I left CH - so soon that I had to walk out a few days early to catch the boat. I was summoned to the HM's house where, with bad grace Seaman mumbled the Charge, pushed a bible in my hands and pushed me out. Even going to see a few masters I got the impression that they thought I was being expelled. Definitely not a nice way to be got rid of and they expect me to be grateful
I didn’t have a job to go to but I did miss the leaver’s service. I had a massive sense of ennui in that last week and when the time came I just stayed in house and stared at my packed things.

The effect was slightly marred by my father breaking down on the way to pick me up (owing to the necessary middle-class disdain for new cars) and so I was there well into the evening when everyone else had gone.

Years later I wrote and apologised to the Housemaster who replied very graciously but as time has passed further I am rather pleased that I missed the smug apex of the CH experience; the pompous Charge and the patrician nonsense that goes with it. I had good grades, good friends, and had held onto my anal virginity.
sejintenej
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Re: What Doesn't Happen At CH These Days?

Post by sejintenej »

loringa wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:25 pm
AMP wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:42 pm
I think my comments are going to send one contributor to the looney bin so be warned.
In France, the middle classes tend to drive old bangers(no road tax for cars over 15 years old) and instead spend their money on education.
Not quite. There is a punitive wealth tax in France. Houses are AFAIR valued at what you paid for them so people don't move very much. Being seen driving an old banger fails to bring the tax man on your tail as being rich.
Absolutely and that is us to a tee; I drive a 10-plate car and my wife's is on an 05-plate. Whilst they have let us down in the past; we manage just fine with these old bangers :-) We buy what we need and when we need it; are most certainly not early adopters of anything technical and, if it works, we keep on using it until it doesn't.
Agreed. I used to pick up a massive mileage so when we were living in France we had a diesel car because fuel was about €0.55 a litre compared to
€1.40 for petrol. We are ? fortunate in being tied in to one manufacturer for life which actually suits us and saves money - and they don't have an electric car (yet)
That latter has its pros and cons - I was not ableto use my mobile for Track and Trace because the manufacturers would not allow it (or rather the TAT software writers cocked up.) OTOH I see that electric suppliers for cars demand use of certain mobiles which do not include my mobile. Given I use my mobile phone for calls (and nothing else) about once a fortnight or less why the hell should I buy another? Britain now has perhaps one car manufacturer (Morgan) , Lotus being I think Indian so every electric car has to be imported and paid for in hard earned foreign exchange

I spent 40 years slaving away, usually in hellish places like Lagos and Ibadan so that the British people would have the foreign exchange to import food.
.We chose to educate our daughter privately because the maintained sector was simply not doing what was required for her to develop her potential. It was our choice but we didn't make it lightly; I am not wedded in any way to the independent sector but it really was a case of needs must.
Firstly I have a down on those universities which have course on the StarWar films and wonder if writing about second rate pop artists is much better. I am not totally out of that arena - my best man wrote one of the well known music tunes still played today and made a living from his music but had a sensible job as well.
His primary school told us that they were not prepared to waste any funds at all on my second son "because he is never going to go anywhere". He could sit at the back of the class provided he was quiet but anything he did was not marked. The secondary school took a different tack - he was sent to "teach" children with learning difficulties. We know that the area expert examined him but no report was given to us - simply the statement that he would be best suited to working with his hands. It cost us a small fortune and we eventually found that he is badly dyslexic but of course the local authority was mot interested.. A uni helped him and he eventually got a BSc. and now has a responsible job in a London financial company.
Unfortunately, the maintained sector (or at least the National Education Union of which, for my sins, I am a reluctant member) still claims 5 GCSEs at Grade C (now 4/5) as some sort of 'gold' standard whilst, so in reality, it would be much more appropriately seen as the threshold: good enough but by no means 'good'.
Hardly; it seems you need a degree for any reasonable job these days. OTOH GCSEs are such poor quality that they are hardly employable. As an example my grand daughter learned more French talking to local kids for five evenings than UK teachers taught her in several years and got her a "B" grade. (She later worked in a publicity role just outside Paris for four years.) My 1957 CH French teacher was condemned as not knowing the first thing but at least I could get through a business meeting much later.
It appears to be the one thing that they won't let you spend your money on - anything else goes. Of course it isn't fair but life isn't fair; this at least sees the money going to something I consider worthwhile and not on a big, expensive motor vehicle, or a house in Spain!
Well, that is the Seig Heil brigade at work working to destroy the nation. A gang who had more people on the expenses take than their opposition - I note that disclosure has now been stopped so they are probably as ............. This was evidenced by their finance minister leaving a note on his desk "There's no money left"!
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
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Re: What Doesn't Happen At CH These Days?

Post by sejintenej »

loringa wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:25 pm
AMP wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:42 pm
I think my comments are going to send one contributor to the looney bin so be warned.
In France, the middle classes tend to drive old bangers(no road tax for cars over 15 years old) and instead spend their money on education.
Not quite. There is a punitive wealth tax in France. Houses are AFAIR valued at what you paid for them so people don't move very much. Being seen driving an old banger fails to bring the tax man on your tai as being rich.
Absolutely and that is us to a tee; I drive a 10-plate car and my wife's is on an 05-plate. Whilst they have let us down in the past; we manage just fine with these old bangers :-) We buy what we need and when we need it; are most certainly not early adopters of anything technical and, if it works, we keep on using it until it doesn't.
Agreed. I used to pick up a massive mileage so when we were living in France we had a diesel car because fuel was about €0.55 a litre compared to
€1.40 for petrol. We are ? fortunate in being tied in to one manufacturer for life which actually suits us and saves money - and they don't have an electric car (yet)
That latter has its pros and cons - I was not ableto use my mobile for Track and Trace because the manufacturers would not allow it (or rather the TAT software writers cocked up.) OTOH I see that electric suppliers for cars demand use of certain mobiles w, hich do not include my mobile. Given I use my mobile phone (and nothing else) about once a fortnight or less why the hell should I buy another? Britain now has perhaps one car manufacturer (Morgan) , Lotus being I think Indian so every electric car has to be imported and paid for in hard earned foreign exchange

I spent 40 years slaving away, usually in hellish places like Lagos and Ibadan so that the British people would have the foreign exchange to import food.
.We chose to educate our daughter privately because the maintained sector was simply not doing what was required for her to develop her potential. It was our choice but we didn't make it lightly; I am not wedded in any way to the independent sector but it really was a case of needs must.
His primary school told us that they were not prepared to waste any funds at all on my second son "because he is never going to go anywhere". He could sit at the back of the class provided he was quiet but anything he did was not marked. The secondary school took a different tack - he was sent to "teach" children with learning difficulties. We know that the area expert examined him but no report was given to us - simply the statement that he would be best suited to working with his hands. It cost us a small fortune and we eventually found that he is badly dyslexic but of course the local authority was mot interested.. A uni helped him and he eventually got a BSc. and now has a responsible job in a London financial company.
Unfortunately, the maintained sector (or at least the National Education Union of which, for my sins, I am a reluctant member) still claims 5 GCSEs at Grade C (now 4/5) as some sort of 'gold' standard whilst, so in reality, it would be much more appropriately seen as the threshold: good enough but by no means 'good'.
Hardly; it seems you need a degree for any reasonable job these days. OTOH GCSEs are such poor quality that they are hardly employable.
It appears to be the one thing that they won't let you spend your money on - anything else goes. Of course it isn't fair but life isn't fair; this at least sees the money going to something I consider worthwhile and not on a big, expensive motor vehicle, or a house in Spain!
Well, that is the Seig Heil brigade at work working to destroy the nation. This was evidenced by their finance minister leaving a note on his desk "There's no money left"!
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
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Chrissie Boy
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Re: What Doesn't Happen At CH These Days?

Post by Chrissie Boy »

Meanwhile, I continue to wonder whether Chapel Practice still happens at CH.
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Re: What Doesn't Happen At CH These Days?

Post by rockfreak »

Yes, sorry to go off message again, but a brief riposte to those who take issue with my views on taxation. I recently had a letter in the FT endorsing the taxing of unearned assets (particularly housing) as opposed to earned income (although the top band of UK income tax is still, I believe, less than that in Sweden and Denmark). I particularly suggested that a severe updating of the council tax bands would be a good idea. These have not been uprated since 1991 because the last time someone tried to meddle with them they got it wrong and riots ensued. The present system is an invitation to the mega rich to park their money in property and the result is house price (and rent) inflation and more expensive housing for the rest of us. I suggested in my letter that this was a good way to raise money because the wealthy FT readers who would be affected would be less likely to turn out and face the riot police in Trafalgar Square. An alternative but similar idea is a land value tax which, over the years, has been endorsed by the 18th century guru of free market capitalism Adam Smith as well as by his more recent counterpart Milton Friedman (an enthusiast of small state/low tax thinking and Margaret Thatcher's guru), and indeed both these figures, who are revered on the right of politics, admitted that this sort of taxation was the fairest there was. I'm not in favour of a hike in NI because it will hit the working young (who surely need a break) nor a rise in VAT which is a flat tax and therefore regressive (it falls more heavily on the less well off).
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Re: What Doesn't Happen At CH These Days?

Post by sejintenej »

rockfreak wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:19 pm The present system is an invitation to the mega rich to park their money in property and the result is house price (and rent) inflation and more expensive housing for the rest of us. I suggested in my letter that this was a good way to raise money because the wealthy FT readers who would be affected would be less likely to turn out and face the riot police in Trafalgar Square.
You seem to have forgotten the mass exodus of doctors who took everything when income tax was raised. There is a multiplicity of English speaking counties who would welcome the richer British with open arms - indeed I know of one which offers its Diplomatic Passport to anyone bringing in what was £1,000,000 for any reason. (Could be more now). I suspect that at least a few of the rich were so well educated that a country with a foreign language would also suit. Not rich myself but even I would be content with any of three foreign languages - that is what an active company breeds!
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
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Re: What Doesn't Happen At CH These Days?

Post by jtaylor »

rockfreak wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:19 pm I particularly suggested that a severe updating of the council tax bands would be a good idea. These have not been uprated since 1991 because the last time someone tried to meddle with them they got it wrong and riots ensued.
I've often wondered whether taxation of wealth is the way to go, instead or as well as income, or not....
I worry that high taxation based on property value would lead to people with an expensive house, but no/little income, to be forced to sell their property to thus afford the tax on it....thus forcing them out of their home at the point they need stability? It could also lead to people having to continue working into retirement in order to afford the taxation on their main property. When someone's entire wealth is tied up in their main property, there'd be no alterative than to sell and move out...... Or is there another way of viewing this?

I'd also worry that taxation on assets would lead to people not bothering to save for retirements - for many, they invest in property, investments etc. as a way of securing their retirement - and thus not relying on the state for their retirement. This has a long-term benefit to the tax payer. If we were to make it less advantageous to save and build up assets, then the point of doing so would be reduced, and many could simply say "spend it now" rather than saving for their retirement?

As always, way more complex than it may appear? But interested in balanced views on the above challenges....

J
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Re: What Doesn't Happen At CH These Days?

Post by loringa »

jtaylor wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:32 pm
rockfreak wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:19 pm I particularly suggested that a severe updating of the council tax bands would be a good idea. These have not been uprated since 1991 because the last time someone tried to meddle with them they got it wrong and riots ensued.
I've often wondered whether taxation of wealth is the way to go, instead or as well as income, or not....
I worry that high taxation based on property value would lead to people with an expensive house, but no/little income, to be forced to sell their property to thus afford the tax on it....thus forcing them out of their home at the point they need stability? It could also lead to people having to continue working into retirement in order to afford the taxation on their main property. When someone's entire wealth is tied up in their main property, there'd be no alterative than to sell and move out...... Or is there another way of viewing this?

I'd also worry that taxation on assets would lead to people not bothering to save for retirements - for many, they invest in property, investments etc. as a way of securing their retirement - and thus not relying on the state for their retirement. This has a long-term benefit to the tax payer. If we were to make it less advantageous to save and build up assets, then the point of doing so would be reduced, and many could simply say "spend it now" rather than saving for their retirement?

As always, way more complex than it may appear? But interested in balanced views on the above challenges....

J
Taxation of wealth is very difficult to do because it is very difficult to assess what wealth actually means. I am in receipt of an Armed Forces pension which pays out every month (or will when I cease to be re-employed in the Armed Forces) until I die whereupon my wife will receive a pension of half of what I get. As an officially non-contributory scheme there is no pension pot as such and I can't draw down my 25% tax free that others can. It has a nominal valuation so I don't exceed the government pension limit but it's not wealth as such - the income is taxable as any other income but if you decided it was an asset on which to enforce a wealth tax; there is no reason to assume I could pay it as I couldn't access the capital. Every spare penny I have earnt since I started work aged 18 has either gone into my house or to fund my daughter's education. The house has a value of course but, like my pension, it is inaccessible until I choose to sell and even if I downsize, I still need to put a roof over my head.

This brings me to the issue of revaluation for Council Tax. I am sure Mr Redshaw is correct in saying properties have not been revalued since 1991 but I don't see that a revaluation now would make any significant difference. There are 8 Council tax bands and if my house was assessed as Band H in 1991, or C or whatever, why should it be any different now? What I pay has increased broadly in line with inflation since then; what the house is worth will have gone up more but it will still sit broadly within the same band as previously. Of course, you could add additional bands which I think is what Mr Redshaw is getting at but that would simply be a tax increase and nothing would have increased my ability to pay just because the value of the property is higher. The answer might be a local income tax but whilst that would probably mean I pay more now; I would pay significantly less when I retire and in an area with a lot of retirees I am not sure that would increase the Council's take in the long term.

A great many people are asset rich undoubtedly but cash poor (or certainly less wealthy). The vast majority of normal people's 'wealth' is tied up in their pension fund and their property. Taxing either would be problematic with potentially highly negative consequences. The only sensible way to raise more money is to raises taxes, and that is never popular even when wholly justified.
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Re: What Doesn't Happen At CH These Days?

Post by sejintenej »

I won't copy Andrew's exhaustive message about a tax on assets; he covered most of the points well so I will add from a different perspective.

My wife's pension includes not only the normal cash monthly but a subsidy against any car she or a family member buys (but no one can get more than one in any 9 month period(!) , subsidised spares, dining facilities a substantial sum towards her funeral expenses with the kicker that apart from the funeral expenses I get 50% of her pension plus the vehicle subsidies etc Again, like Andrew how do you put a value on that?

There is the question of property value. I don't fully agree with Andrew over the Council Rating system; within a mile of me there are multimillion sale price houses and very nice £500,000 houses. Rating values do not cover those because it is all about the area name and who the neighbours are.

The French also have an annual tax on assets but so far as property is concerned it is based on the price when the property was last sold, hence the slow turnover of houses. The document for the sale includes clauses threatening castration or far worse if a single sou extra is paid. However, there is another get around - the sale price for tax reasons is of the bricks and mortar so items in the house or elsewhere can be legally sold as secondhand for extortionate figures tax free and that is not covered by the property sale. Then there is the question of who owns property in France; die and it is split equally between your kids and then their kids - we had a house in our hamlet which they think is owned by over twenty people whose location was unknown - but it was used by a non successor! Of course the value of your car matters - it is widely known that Paris millionaires keep ancient deux cheveux for use at their holiday homes - home never ever sold but passed from generation to generation so there is no current tax valuation. .

Being asset rich and cash poor. Yes - that would cover many - perhaps most working age people who are still "getting by". Bring in a tax on the value of your assets and houses will go on sale immediately and we will see a slump like the US suffered with prices disappearing, houses unsellable .......What is the value of a house if it cannot be sold? We would see the lenders in trouble just like the wave of finance company bankruptcies in the USA. Those who have any money in shares like all those ISA millionaires or pension pots will sell as fast as they can depressing the market and making it difficult for companies to finance anything.
Next stems from past holidays. People are more mobile these days and we will see at least the clever senior staff, doctors (again - we saw what happened in the sixties) fleeing the country with all their assets; if you have a French born parent or parent / grandparent born in a number of other countries such as the entire island of Ireland then you automatically have dual nationality so emigrating, in many cases to anywhere in the EU, is far from impossible.

If a wealth tax were to be introduced half of the MPs would lose their seats, riots in the streets and chaos!
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
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