Unofficial Christ's Hospital Forum

So, Pe.A, would you say that Breakwelll was born that way (a), or influenced by his environment and experiences (b), or unjustly afflicted by the inconveniences of social conventions (c)?

A one letter answer please. (No need to waste time attacking TMF, swearing, blaspheming, or explaining your paedophilia theories).

TMF wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:53 am So, Pe.A, would you say that Breakwelll was born that way (a), or influenced by his environment and experiences (b), or unjustly afflicted by the inconveniences of social conventions (c)?

A one letter answer please. (No need to waste time attacking TMF, swearing, blaspheming, or explaining your paedophilia theories).

A one letter answer? That doesn't give me many options.

I don't really understand the point of your questioning. What's your point?

TMF wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:08 pm

....and what's this got to do with Ben Breakwell...?

Was Breakwell's offending his nature exclusively, or was it nurtured by contacts and experiences as a pupil, or what is simply due to the age of consent?

What was Breakwell like?
Did anyone know him? (I know you do not want to say, Pe.A).
What did Breakwell experience at CH? - staff grooming examples, staff being moved on with a reference, authority turning a blind eye, etc.

Breakwell spent a lot of time with Husband and Dobbie.
Dobbie for obvious reasons with the Madrigals.
Husband may also have been his house tutor and Martin may have been his life coach.
Let's see what he offers in mitigation.

AMP wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:33 amBreakwell spent a lot of time with Husband and Dobbie.
Dobbie for obvious reasons with the Madrigals.
Husband may have also been his house tutor and Martin may have been his life coach.

1. Did he though, or is this supposition? Dobbie is quite possible I suppose, but Husband was booted during my GE, which I'm guessing was Breakwell's 3rd form. Unless my recollection of CH is completely unique, what spare time you have during squits is spent avoiding jobs/a kicking. If you kept running to a master, that would be noticed and most people would assume you are a massive grass. Again, maybe my recollection bears no resemblance to anyone elses, but if you're spending a lot of time with a teacher, you're either in trouble or getting someone else into it, so most avoided it as much as possible. This is before we try to work out how much free time any master had.

2. Don't know who/what the Madrigals are, only Madrigal I know of is a character written by Armistead Maupin, which is probably not what you're thinking of.

3. For the house tutor point, see above. "Life coach"? I think from UF onwards everyone had a tutor who you met once or twice a term to talk to for an hour or so, is that what you mean? I talked to mine about hard rock and homebrewing, and there was the occasional bit of pastoral care. Not saying it's impossible, but as I remember it, you never had a load of contact with your tutor.

If you were a popular kid (as Brakewell apparently was), you generally spent a lot of time with other kids.

As I said before, it's not impossible, but I think you're seeing conspiracy where coincidence is a simpler explanation.

TMF wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:53 amSo, Pe.A, would you say that Breakwelll was born that way (a), or influenced by his environment and experiences (b), or unjustly afflicted by the inconveniences of social conventions (c)?

The answer is all of the above.

I understand the desire for an easy explanation, but people, even pedos, are three dimensional. Everyone's actions are determined by a mix of (a) and (b), and every crim will argue (c) when they get caught. Actually, most will argue that they didn't do it, but after that it's (c).

AMP wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:33 am

TMF wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:08 pm

....and what's this got to do with Ben Breakwell...?

Was Breakwell's offending his nature exclusively, or was it nurtured by contacts and experiences as a pupil, or what is simply due to the age of consent?

What was Breakwell like?
Did anyone know him? (I know you do not want to say, Pe.A).
What did Breakwell experience at CH? - staff grooming examples, staff being moved on with a reference, authority turning a blind eye, etc.

Breakwell spent a lot of time with Husband and Dobbie.
Dobbie for obvious reasons with the Madrigals.
Husband may also have been his house tutor and Martin may have been his life coach.
Let's see what he offers in mitigation.

How do you know all of this...?

Actually it is more Marple than either: Breakwell was taught by Husband only briefly (Husband covered another). It is likely that he may have been groomed by Husband and/or Dobbie. I am not certain that he knew Karim but he would have known about Karim's behaviour.

In all the research that I have done in what is now over 4 years, most sexual abusers learn their trade whilst young and are groomed into the trade by older (not always that much) mentors. Some have been abused but it is about a 50/50 split.

It is unlikely, extremely unlikely, that Breakwell suddenly found that he was attracted to sexual abuse. He would have discovered it over time and may have known quite young and manipulated into it. He may well have realised that he liked young girls (very young) whilst at CH and he may have expressed that in certain ways and have been observed and then aided in his desires.

One of the issues with CH, or for that matter St Pauls and others, is that it is extremely hard for the police to investigate a form of gang culture in these matters. From all the evidence that I have and despite certain denials, it is clear that each of the convicted were aware of the activities of the others. It is, also, clear that at least three of the convicted observed that others got away with the activities even after the appointment of a CPO.

Whilst much 'information' could be passed via the Common Room, much, also, was passed within staff houses. Evidence suggests that just about everyone knew what Dobbie was up to.

robert totterdell wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:19 pm Actually it is more Marple than either: Breakwell was taught by Husband only briefly (Husband covered another). It is likely that he may have been groomed by Husband and/or Dobbie. I am not certain that he knew Karim but he would have known about Karim's behaviour.

In all the research that I have done in what is now over 4 years, most sexual abusers learn their trade whilst young and are groomed into the trade by older (not always that much) mentors. Some have been abused but it is about a 50/50 split.

It is unlikely, extremely unlikely, that Breakwell suddenly found that he was attracted to sexual abuse. He would have discovered it over time and may have known quite young and manipulated into it. He may well have realised that he liked young girls (very young) whilst at CH and he may have expressed that in certain ways and have been observed and then aided in his desires.

One of the issues with CH, or for that matter St Pauls and others, is that it is extremely hard for the police to investigate a form of gang culture in these matters. From all the evidence that I have and despite certain denials, it is clear that each of the convicted were aware of the activities of the others. It is, also, clear that at least three of the convicted observed that others got away with the activities even after the appointment of a CPO.

Whilst much 'information' could be passed via the Common Room, much, also, was passed within staff houses. Evidence suggests that just about everyone knew what Dobbie was up to.

Sorry, don't really buy it. Are you saying that all/most adult males who engage in sexual activity with 14/15 yrs old girls, whatever the scenario, were mentored or manipulated into it?

robert totterdell wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:19 pm Actually it is more Marple than either: Breakwell was taught by Husband only briefly (Husband covered another). It is likely that he may have been groomed by Husband and/or Dobbie. I am not certain that he knew Karim but he would have known about Karim's behaviour.

In all the research that I have done in what is now over 4 years, most sexual abusers learn their trade whilst young and are groomed into the trade by older (not always that much) mentors. Some have been abused but it is about a 50/50 split.

It is unlikely, extremely unlikely, that Breakwell suddenly found that he was attracted to sexual abuse. He would have discovered it over time and may have known quite young and manipulated into it. He may well have realised that he liked young girls (very young) whilst at CH and he may have expressed that in certain ways and have been observed and then aided in his desires.

One of the issues with CH, or for that matter St Pauls and others, is that it is extremely hard for the police to investigate a form of gang culture in these matters. From all the evidence that I have and despite certain denials, it is clear that each of the convicted were aware of the activities of the others. It is, also, clear that at least three of the convicted observed that others got away with the activities even after the appointment of a CPO.

Whilst much 'information' could be passed via the Common Room, much, also, was passed within staff houses. Evidence suggests that just about everyone knew what Dobbie was up to.

Come to think about it, how do you know Husband taught Breakwell? I'm pretty sure Husband did not teach junior year groups (?) As for Dobbie (or Husband, for that matter) grooming him in the dark arts, what makes you say that?

I know about the teaching from a source who witnessed it. It was temporary. As for grooming which is not the 'Dark Arts' there is evidence to suggest so - the sentencing will reveal hopefully but again I have a source and will not name the person for obvious reasons.

robert totterdell wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:23 pm I know about the teaching from a source who witnessed it. It was temporary. As for grooming which is not the 'Dark Arts' there is evidence to suggest so - the sentencing will reveal hopefully but again I have a source and will not name the person for obvious reasons.

er....Ben Breakwell would have been about 13 when Husband was booted out.

Again, i ask whether you're you saying that all/most adult males who engage in sexual activity with 14/15 yrs old girls, whatever the scenario, were mentored or manipulated into it?

You say that "Breakwell suddenly found that he was attracted to sexual abuse. He would have discovered it over time and may have known quite young and manipulated into it. He may well have realised that he liked young girls (very young) whilst at CH and he may have expressed that in certain ways and have been observed and then aided in his desires."

There's a lot of mays and maybes in this (once again). Young boys do tend to like young girls - that's part of growing up, isn't it...? So what was to be observed and then aided?

And I was 11 when I was first abused - so what is your point?

Breakwell may have developed desires later in life or he may have started to get these when young but not have moved on to people of his own age or older. He went for younger.

The point is, that you seem to miss, is was he influenced when at CH or did he just become like he is at a later age? Whatever, he committed sexual abuse and no excuse is acceptable for that - but then I experienced it and I guess that you did not. The evidence that I have suggests he was groomed and that is not in his defense - it is a reality of what happened at the school.

He may have been the nicest boy in the world. Many have been described as that but they end up being mass murderers or terrorists or 'sexual abusers'. Most do not just do whatever - they are influenced to do it.

I am saying that it is unlikely that Breakwell suddenly took a like to young girls in his 30's or 40's. He may have - it is unlikely from evidence from other cases but that may be a possibility. I am saying that historical case evidence suggests that he may well have been groomed. That is not unusual. By who is debatable as there were several sexual predators at the school at the time and not just those convicted.

I suspect that this discussion is not worthwhile to continue. I was a victim and as far as I can understand you were not. I rest my case.

robert totterdell wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:27 pm And I was 11 when I was first abused - so what is your point?

Breakwell may have developed desires later in life or he may have started to get these when young but not have moved on to people of his own age or older. He went for younger.

The point is, that you seem to miss, is was he influenced when at CH or did he just become like he is at a later age? Whatever, he committed sexual abuse and no excuse is acceptable for that - but then I experienced it and I guess that you did not. The evidence that I have suggests he was groomed and that is not in his defense - it is a reality of what happened at the school.

He may have been the nicest boy in the world. Many have been described as that but they end up being mass murderers or terrorists or 'sexual abusers'. Most do not just do whatever - they are influenced to do it.

I am saying that it is unlikely that Breakwell suddenly took a like to young girls in his 30's or 40's. He may have - it is unlikely from evidence from other cases but that may be a possibility. I am saying that historical case evidence suggests that he may well have been groomed. That is not unusual. By who is debatable as there were several sexual predators at the school at the time and not just those convicted.

I suspect that this discussion is not worthwhile to continue. I was a victim and as far as I can understand you were not. I rest my case.

My point is not to presuppose and stick to the facts as we know them - I don't think that's unreasonable.

There are just too many mays and maybes. What evidence have you got that he was groomed or influenced? Some people like teenage girls - it could be that they are more innocent, impressionable, gullible, and more amenable to overtures etc. I can remember when I was a student and had a job at a department store, where one of the security guards, who was in his mid/late 20s, like to sleep with the 16 year old shop assistants - and he had gotten through most of them, if not all. Would he have strayed and gone under the 16 break point? I've always thought so. I don't think he would have needed to be influenced, groomed or even have needed a second invitation. The same goes for the former football player Adam Johnson, for example.

So yes, you're right, it is unlikely that Breakwell suddenly took a liking to young girls in his 30s or 40s. But i question your assertion that "historical case evidence suggests that he may well have been groomed". What case evidence? The same goes for you saying "By who is debatable as there were several sexual predators at the school at the time and not just those convicted". Ben Breakwell would have been in his early teens when the likes of Husband, Karim etc were booted out - what would have been so unusual or noticeable for someone to pick up on anything, let alone someone having had time to groom or influence him? It doesn't make sense.

I will happily stand corrected if actual evidence emerges, but I don't think anyone should be above being asked questions, whoever they are.

It's well recognised that those who are abused become abusers.

Whether this happened to Breakwell may emerge at his sentencing hearing, although it is likely to buried away in a Probation report and not said out loud

richardb wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:33 am It's well recognised that those who are abused become abusers.

Whether this happened to Breakwell may emerge at his sentencing hearing, although it is likely to buried away in a Probation report and not said out loud

OK- but the issue in question was whether Breakwell was somehow influenced to do what he did and whether that influence could somehow be linked back to what he saw or didn't see at CH.