Re: Anyone else who hated being at CH ?
Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:07 pm
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I would suggest that by the time you went there CH had climbed out of the Noah's Ark and then Ypres formats and beliefs. Fixing was not necessarily as easy (if even vaguely possible) for those with more forcibly engrained quirks.
time please wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:05 am Rockfreak,
I think you summed it up quite well. I have often thought about what the school was trying to form us into. A couple of centuries ago it was quite easy to understand: you were the person in the rear rank who shouted " attack " and the "front rank died". Nowadays perhaps a person who can decide to move a factory from one country to another without a thought for the personal suffering this could cause.
What I would like to know is what type of person I would have been had I not been at the school. I believe that I lost some of the best years of my life at Horsham, that I became a person with some rather hard edges. It frightens me that my partner/wife of 45 years says that she does not really know who I am. To be honest I am surprised that I survived, but looking back at my life I can see that CH was not good at least for me.
However I did survive. Maybe I should be proud of that!
time please: Why should you have to "survive" your education? In other more civilised countries than ours you go to school to learn things and your parents do the raising bit. You say that your wife doesn't really know you. Join the club. And my parents said that CH had changed me although they didn't elaborate but I suspected that they meant for the worse. Cultures that have sent their children out of the home to be raised include the ancient Spartans, the Order of Jesuits, and our own colonists who tore indigenous children away from their families in order to teach them "muscular Christianity". Why should we have to balance a "good education" (if indeed that's what it is) against the need to survive? Yes I know that in the modern age there's more privacy, carpets, radiators, i-phones, so-called pastoral care (unless it's delivered by Chaplain Dobbie), but these people are still not your parents. What do we hope to achieve with the ultimate product? David Cameron? Boris Johnson? Jacob Rees-Mogg? Steve Hilton? And I note that in the end, for all that this might have turned into an interesting thread with some acute psychological insights, we've ended up talking about the mechanics of the flaming Bren gun. How typically public school.
sejintenej wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:37 pm
TruePerhaps it is because other WE countries do not have the same ethos of looking to help the under-dog so long as they can say "I'm OK Jack".Not that I'm knocking anyone who goes into the military. In some ways I have the greatest respect for them. Only that I don't think any other western European country has this obsession with Empire, conquest, marching and uniforms.
Don't forget that British teams supported by their employers are in there whenever there is earthquake damage , hurricanes and other catastrophes (and CH actually taught some of us HOW to do all those jobs and be ready if needed to run such an operation)
Rock climbing up to Severe - perhaps 6b - was available - I used to do it a couple of days a month with Kit's knowledge. That was sandstone which was a pig sometimes. Then there was the so-called "arduous training" in the Peak and Lake Districts which was pure mountain walking and camping. Then there were the occasionals - Cader Idris, Snowdonand Tryfan and The Devil's Kitchen in the snow, the Cuillin circuit, miscellaneous Lake District climbs...... and being on a hillock in Langdale campsite when all the tents around us were submerged!I too enjoyed sports at CH. Although the ones that I took up in later life and were best at were horse riding, and then rock climbing and snow and ice mountaineering, neither of which were offered at CH. Indeed, thinking about it, all the things that I loved or was good at seemed to have nothing to do with my education. Including latterly political activism.
For me, the social benefits of going to CH weren’t necessarily what I gained, but what I left behind. My brother didn’t go to CH and has some terrible associations, there they are on Facebook, all HKLP and watching ITV. CH obviously failed me though: I didn’t leave ardent with a desire to go and die in any trenches, nor do I believe that it was inculcated in us to encourage others to do so. What subliminal messages did I miss?rockfreak wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:21 pm Sorry to come onto this thread years after the event and I hope the original poster is still on this mortal coil (well you never know when you're my age). No, the misgivings you expressed are perfectly normal and are explored in detail by the psychotherapist and ex-boarder Nick Duffell (one of whose professional colleagues was an Old Blue). Books to read are 'The Making of Them' and 'Wounded Leaders'. I've been banging on about these books so much elsewhere on the site that someone has sarcastically accused me of having a vested interest. I don't, and sarcasm is one of the stocks in trade people often pick up at boarding school. For many it's a substitute for intelligence.
Also worth reading is a recent publication called 'Gilded Youth' by James Brooke-Smith which mentions the "intensity" of feeling that you pick up about your schooldays. You may feel good or bad about them but, as we can read from posters all over the site, the experience is never less than intense. Unlike at a day school. So many people on this site try to say that CH is somehow different with its majority of assisted places but I don't believe it is. The tradition, history, uniform, spacious surroundings and facilities, the marching into lunch to the splendid military-style band - all these give a sense of superiority, so that when you take off at the end of it all with the solemn leavers' charge ringing in your ears it's easy to believe that you're someone special.
But put the leavers' charge into plain English and it's essentially an example of outdated Victorian patronage. We can only spread our stardust over a limited number of people. Has CH changed anything after 450 years? No. Look at the state of the country: we're the most unequal country in developed Europe. What has CH had to do with anything? Nothing whatsoever. So what are the emotions of the doubters? Intensity, a guilty feeling of ingratitude, for some a "bruised" feeling that they've been somehow psychologically damaged by the whole experience, a feeling that they were the ones who couldn't "take it" - all these are feelings that are given a good psychological and emotional unpacking in the books I've mentioned. They are perfectly normal and indeed they may illustrate someone who, by feeling uncomfortable about their experience, is in better psychic health than those who unquestioningly defend the school and the system.
Michael. At least you had the benefit of parents with (presumably) the time to talk, to answer questions - even if you had to boil water on the stove for the tin bath on the kitchen floor. It is no great secret that I wss adopted (? twice) and after a call to CH once again I was an orphan. From the time I was perhaps five the person in charge of me was working 6am to 10pm, 6 and a half days a week so no time for parental advice (though she had no background to give any). Be thankful that you actually had a family. Be thankful that when you walked out of CH someone somewhere could advise you. Someone could tell you about universities of further education. You had someone who could answer questions.michael scuffil wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:35 am Life at CH could be nasty and brutish (though not short), and of course I missed home comforts (though CH did have running hot water). But would I have preferred a daily 2-hour commute through dreary suburbs rather than a pleasant walk to school? I dunno. And would I have preferred having my parents around during the difficult phases of adolescence? Almost certainly not.
rockfreak wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:09 pm I'm interested in Avon's attitude because, after all this time, he and I seem to me to be coming from exactly the same place! When I mentioned our "stardust" I was using it in a sardonic way. We don't sprinkle our supposed stardust over the rest of the unlettered plebs and expect great national results precisely because in many cases we don't have stardust to sprinkle. People of ability and talent and character come into national life from all over the place these days, whatever the situation may have been in 1960 when I left the school.
The Leavers Charge was written, I think, by Hamilton Fyfe (Correct me if I'm wrong here) in an age before the economist John Maynard Keynes gave us the blueprint for government taking a steadying hand in the wilder excesses of the free market and starting to equalise up the economies of the western world. So HF would still have been a creature of his time: someone who thought that economic booms and busts and wealth gaps were an unfortunate fact of life and that Victorian (or Edwardian) patronage in the school system was the best that we could manage. Well for three decades after the war these ideas were challenged and the result was a massive narrowing of the wealth gap. There were problems with the bedding in of the comprehensive system (huge classes, perhaps ill-advised "trendy" teaching methods) but what new system doesn't lack problems.
But then Mrs Thatcher came in with her dislike of the working class and ever since we've seen the wealth gap go out like the tide at Southend so that the rich (often tax exiles) have got tax favours while those at the bottom have struggled. And the state schooling system has struggled. Only last week the Daily Mirror headlined (belatedly) with the scandalous tax breaks the private schooling sector gets for being "charitable institutions" while in the state schools parents and teachers are doing the cleaning, decorating and minor repairs.
I wonder whether the girls had the Charge as early as the boys? I suppose there were a few intrepid women who went out to the Empire, but I always felt that the girls, probably up to the WW2, were more seen as being trained to be wives, teachers or nurses, definitely not a job with influence in the world.rockfreak wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:09 pm The Leavers Charge was written, I think, by Hamilton Fyfe (Correct me if I'm wrong here) in an age before the economist John Maynard Keynes gave us the blueprint for government taking a steadying hand in the wilder excesses of the free market and starting to equalise up the economies of the western world. So HF would still have been a creature of his time: someone who thought that economic booms and busts and wealth gaps were an unfortunate fact of life and that Victorian (or Edwardian) patronage in the school system was the best that we could manage.
Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly very glad I had parents. But I'm also glad I didn't share a house with them as disciplinary agents between the ages of (about) 13 and 18. They could however give me no advice on how the middle-class functioned. And while CH could, it didn't bother: it got me into Cambridge, duty done.sejintenej wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:00 pmMichael. At least you had the benefit of parents with (presumably) the time to talk, to answer questions - even if you had to boil water on the stove for the tin bath on the kitchen floor. It is no great secret that I wss adopted (? twice) and after a call to CH once again I was an orphan. From the time I was perhaps five the person in charge of me was working 6am to 10pm, 6 and a half days a week so no time for parental advice (though she had no background to give any). Be thankful that you actually had a family. Be thankful that when you walked out of CH someone somewhere could advise you. Someone could tell you about universities of further education. You had someone who could answer questions.michael scuffil wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:35 am Life at CH could be nasty and brutish (though not short), and of course I missed home comforts (though CH did have running hot water). But would I have preferred a daily 2-hour commute through dreary suburbs rather than a pleasant walk to school? I dunno. And would I have preferred having my parents around during the difficult phases of adolescence? Almost certainly not.
Oh, and they kept from me that I had a sister and brother (both dead before I discovered them when I was in my seventies) ) and a neice
Peter; IMHO just about everything in life (and not just your junior house and tutor) carries a big luck factor. The tutor you get, the wife/partner you link up with, the avoidance (or otherwise) of serious injury or illness , the DNA you inherited, the way your mind copes with problems, the life changing opportunity you grabbed or passed over .........peter2095 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:19 pm I have very fond memories of being in my Junior House, where i found it supportive and had a great House master and assistant house mistress, everyone got on really well and it was all around a nice environment. Was very lucky with the people that were in my year group in house.
Senior House was awful, mainly few of the other boys but mostly the house master and lack of support. A lot of favouritism! i know i probably wasn't the easiest to handle / manage, it did feel like they didn't really care.
I have to say, I was very lucky with the tutor I had who did everything they could do to help me.
Why are these tax breaks scandalous? According to the Nuffield foundation's 2018 Annual Report on Education Spending in England, spending per pupil in the maintained sector was on average about £6200 for secondary pupils and around £4800 for primary pupils. Assuming that the average private day school charges around £20,000 per annum to educate a child at secondary level, the VAT saved per child is £4000. Prep schools generally charge less so the saving is less. By educating my daughter privately, even though I benefit from the schools' VAT-free status I am still saving the state over £2000 per year.