"ALL GIRLS TOGETHER"

[anniexf]

I do not know any of the people of whom you speak - but am intrigued by the numbers of Old Girls who have dealt with depression. Is this also true of Housey? Perhaps it was our unique legacy.

Kim
I don't know anything about Housey, but I heard about 2 former Head Girls who were similarly afflicted in later life. Another contemporary of mine wrote that DR was vile to her after she failed to get into Oxford when expected to. DR told her she'd let the whole school down! DR & her cohorts have a lot of misery to answer for.

[kerrensimmonds]

As I have said before, including on this Forum, I personally do not think that Hertford Old Blues should castigate Miss West as the bearer of each and every evil, and it saddens me to see it when people blame her solely for their state of mind in later life. In fact she was a very shy and generous person (others have spoken of her generosity, in which regard she always swore them to secrecy). I had the huge privilege of getting to know her in later life (having been in fear and dread of her when I was at school) and I found a very genuine and private person - who turned out to have been terrified of the Council of Almoners and the edicts which they insisted she implement before she even started, as a naive and innocent 28 year old. She may not have been the right sort of person emotionally to have taken on such a job, but she secured the post in 1942 on the decision of the Council of Almoners, and that is the end of that discussion. Nothing to do with us, 67 years afterwards! A huge load was placed on her shoulders, and she was not necessarily equipped to bear it, though she did the best she could. Read 'Half to Remember' to find the person behind the persona. We all know that she stayed in post until the world had changed (1942 was wartime, 1972 was post 1960's sex drugs and rock and roll) and such a person was probably not emotionally equipped to cope with the generational changes affecting the girls in her charge. I would only add that, whatever the outside circumstances, she always believed that she had the best interests of her girls at her heart, at all times. Though that may not have felt to have been the case to them at the time.
I am sorry that with the passing of time (she died in 2006) she is no longer able to answer for herself. If anyone wants to read the eulogy I delivered at her funeral, it is available on the CHA website, under Old Blues.

[midget]

Welcome Annie, you are by no measn the oldest. midget is in the middle of her eighth decade and Neill the Notorious is a good bit older than she is. We all seem to have 'suffered' DR though, she did have some funny ideas. Peculiar not ha ha

I hadn't thought of age like that!

[anniexf]

That's a powerful and passionate defence, Kerren. I haven't seen your previous posts on this subject, but I respect your " inside knowledge" point of view. I must point out though that few of us were so privileged, so can only judge by our experiences. I read Half to Remember years ago & found it complacent & self-congratulatory to the point of hubris - and badly written to boot. There you go; we speak as we find. Sorry.

[Fjgrogan]

Well said, Kerren. I know that I have blamed my time at Hertford for my later experience of depression, but I don't think I have ever blamed Miss West. I was well into middle age before I realised that Hertford had been when it all started, but in my case I think the problem was mainly my relationship with Miss Jenkins - note that I say our relationship, not the woman herself. No doubt we were both at fault, but she was theoretically the mature adult in the equation who clearly had no idea how to handle immature and volatile teenage girls. I have heard over the years since that various other members of staff were doubtful about her too (I do wish I had known that at the time!). I imagine that Miss West would have felt that she had to back up her staff, however odd their behaviour, in the interests of maintaining discipline, which cannot have been easy for her. It would, of course, have been unthinkable for her to say to any pupil that she was right and the wardmistress was wrong! But it seemed to me at the time that Miss Jenkins always dispatched me to Miss West, rather than dealing with the situation herself. I learned at an early age that I was always going to be in the wrong whatever I did, so after a while I just stopped trying. (CH - one, Self-esteem - nil!). But that was not the fault of Miss West - she was just the person at the top who inevitably got to bear the brunt of anything that happened 'on her patch'. Unfortunately in retrospect I see a lifetime of wasted potential - and still think of Miss Jenkins as the woman who blighted my life!

[kerrensimmonds]

Well Annie, I always said that reading 'Half to Remember' was like drinking gin without the tonic. That is/was the bottom line though Miss West would never have seen it as such, given her innate naivety.

[anniexf]

Well Annie, I always said that reading 'Half to Remember' was like drinking gin without the tonic. That is/was the bottom line though Miss West would never have seen it as such, given her innate naivety.

OK, Kerren. Truce? I don't want a war!!! I'm essentially a softy who's developed a carapace...self-preservation or something.

[olefours]

So many lives were blighted in the 1950s and 60s at Hertford, especially those of bright 'common' LCC scholarship girls, unprepared for the snobbery and the almost anti-intellectual ethos of the school. Too little real education, too much religion (should have spotted the clue in the name). It took me years, and 'The Uses of Literacy' by Richard Hoggart, to recover from the damage of my teenage years. Whoever was to blame, many girls suffered mental scars. Even the good teachers of that time, like Misses Weaver, Dolley, Shackleton, Cleobury and Shuard, seemed to be inhibited by the mafia of the long-established staff, who I now realise were probably afraid of the intelligence of new, young and well-educated teachers.

[Jo]

So many lives were blighted in the 1950s and 60s at Hertford, especially those of bright 'common' LCC scholarship girls, unprepared for the snobbery and the almost anti-intellectual ethos of the school. Too little real education, too much religion (should have spotted the clue in the name). It took me years, and 'The Uses of Literacy' by Richard Hoggart, to recover from the damage of my teenage years. Whoever was to blame, many girls suffered mental scars. Even the good teachers of that time, like Misses Weaver, Dolley, Shackleton, Cleobury and Shuard, seemed to be inhibited by the mafia of the long-established staff, who I now realise were probably afraid of the intelligence of new, young and well-educated teachers.

Well that isn't the picture I recognise from a decade later. Too much religion - yes, of course, but I wouldn't have said snobbery (though others might disagree), and I certainly wouldn't have said anti-intellectual - quite the opposite in fact. One thing I did value was that we were treated as if we deserved a proper education, not just groomed to be nice young ladies, wives and mothers.

I think CH left its impression on all of us. I don't suffer from depression, as others have said, but that's not the only mental symptom. It damaged me in other ways that I am still only just coming to terms with.

[olefours]

I think the education improved a lot after I left, Jo (and not just because!). Girls started insisting on being able to take Science A-levels, and some good new teachers arrived who weren't afraid of the older mafia.
In my time some very poor genteel girls arrived aged 9, and frankly didn't get a brilliant education for the next two years. But they were ensconced before the main intake arrived, so gentility was more important than education. I remember conversations like 'Garridge? What'sa garridge? Here we say garaaaage. You can't come to my party unless I hear you say garaaaage.' Even now I have no confidence in my own accent, and can't help talking 'posh' or 'common' to reflect the person I'm talking to. There's an example. I'm still condemning my eleven-year-old self as 'common' for talking with a London accent.
I was addicted to reading until I was eleven, but don't remember fiction being encouraged or even readily available at CH, although DR occasionally read to the Wards, stories of missionaries or wartime.
We saw just one film in eight years, 'The Nun's Story', which was not what DR expected, and upset her greatly.
I don't remember ever feeling able to talk on an equal footing to adults, and when I had an interview for Oxford, and the interviewer questioned me about opinions I'd written in the entrance paper, I had no idea that she wanted me to debate and argue. As she tried to goad me into a discussion, I just felt I had to agree miserably with her. Still bitter after all these years!
This is great therapy though. 'It's never too late to get over it.'

[Jo]

This is great therapy though. 'It's never too late to get over it.'

Oh, absolutely! My contemporaries that I've kept in touch with just seem to be quite down to earth about CH whereas I felt very angry and bitter even though I did well academically and DR seemed to like me. So I spent many years thinking I must be exaggerating with hindsight, over-dramatising, etc, if I was apparently the only one who felt that way about it. In the two years that I've been on here, this forum has healed many wounds for me, and the realisation that I wasn't the only one who suffered has helped me immeasurably. To the extent that I now feel affection for the place again, and get involved in some OB activities, which at one time would have been unthinkable.

[olefours]

I look forward to feeling that positive.
I live near Horsham, and as far as I can tell, from visiting, and from friends with children there, it's now an excellent school with a really broad-based education. And yet so many OGs seem still to be against the merger, and to dislike Horsham. I wonder why?

[Jo]

I look forward to feeling that positive.
I live near Horsham, and as far as I can tell, from visiting, and from friends with children there, it's now an excellent school with a really broad-based education. And yet so many OGs seem still to be against the merger, and to dislike Horsham. I wonder why?

My impression just from the forum is not that OGs are against the merger or Horsham per se, but are a bit resentful about Hertford OGs being forgotten. I gather that the attendance of Hertford OGs at Horsham OB reunions is quite low, whereas there was a great turnout for the two reunions at Hertford Museum last year. As we feel no physical connection with the school at Horsham, it's hard to feel involved in any events there. I believe the CHA is aware of the situation so it will be interesting to see what steps they take to counter it - although there are only two Hertford OGs on the CHA out of (I think) 11 members (and only one other OG at all, which is rather a disappointing ratio - but I suppose it depends on who volunteers).

[anniexf]

In my time some very poor genteel girls arrived aged 9, and frankly didn't get a brilliant education for the next two years. But they were ensconced before the main intake arrived, so gentility was more important than education. I remember conversations like 'Garridge? What'sa garridge? Here we say garaaaage. You can't come to my party unless I hear you say garaaaage.' Even now I have no confidence in my own accent, and can't help talking 'posh' or 'common' to reflect the person I'm talking to. There's an example. I'm still condemning my eleven-year-old self as 'common' for talking with a London accent.
I was addicted to reading until I was eleven, but don't remember fiction being encouraged or even readily available at CH, although DR occasionally read to the Wards, stories of missionaries or wartime.
We saw just one film in eight years, 'The Nun's Story', which was not what DR expected, and upset her greatly.
I don't remember ever feeling able to talk on an equal footing to adults, and when I had an interview for Oxford, and the interviewer questioned me about opinions I'd written in the entrance paper, I had no idea that she wanted me to debate and argue. As she tried to goad me into a discussion, I just felt I had to agree miserably with her. Still bitter after all these years!
This is great therapy though. 'It's never too late to get over it.'

When I entered CH, via the LCC, I was acutely aware of my common accent, and became a chameleon pdq! My background was poor both financially ( though my parents were still assessed as able to pay something in the way of fees) and educationally. My mother later confided that when they came for the first Long Sat., she was so intimidated by my new accent that she was half-afraid to speak - "tuppence to talk to you", as she put it. Like you, I've remained a chameleon, adjusting my mode of speech as appropriate. I'm ashamed of it, and try to cultivate a kind of "non-status", neutral accent, but not very successfully.
I can empathise with the reading, too - I read voraciously before CH, but there was so little in either the Ward or School library.
We were shown 2 films while I was there, The Dam Busters and Henry V. Later on a television was installed in the School Hall, but as far as I remember we could only watch it on Saturdays after games & before tea.
Talking to adults as equals? Never! I too found it impossible to do anything other than defer to them. It's always been far easier for me to express myself in writing. I had a ghastly experience in an interview for Uni. too - in my case it was Sussex. Two men (horror!) were conducting the interview & I was almost tongue-tied. In desperation I said I could write everything but I couldn't say it. They virtually said "No chance" on the spot. It was so humiliating.
My regrets include a sense of betrayal, being deprived of the quality of education the teachers at my primary school had believed I would get when I reached the pinnacle - acceptance for CH. I was put into Lower IVb, which meant doing O-Levels in 4 years instead of 5, and having to "cram" the Maths. etc. I'd missed out on through not starting in the 3rd. Form. Fortunately I had the wonderful Miss Shuard to help me, and dear Miss Cleobury for Latin. Oddly I didn't do German like the others in that form, so there must have been a plan to move me later. That duly happened at the end of my first year, when I was told I would be in Upper IVa the following year. I was already being bullied by a girl in L.IVb who was also in 8s, and this was cranked up 10-fold after my "promotion". She felt (or said she did) that her best friend deserved it more. Even though I had no say in the matter, I was made to suffer for it. But the result was sadly that I got Miss Mitchell for Maths, which I'd enjoyed but began to hate & subsequently flounder in. And my confidence, never a strong point, dwindled to zero, though I tried to cover that up.
We all were forced into a mould of someone else's design, and if bits of us got damaged in the process it either wasn't noticed or must have been considered "character-building" or something like that.

[fra828]

Going back to DR, personally I did find her kind in certain situations, but there is no getting away from the fact that she was very discouraging and not at all understanding at other times. I can vaguely remember her coming to the house at the end of each term and calling us individually to the housemistress's room to give a kind of verbal report. Can anyone else remember this? My reports from her were usually negative, she somehow felt I was never trying my best at anything. It was all very disheartening and even thinking about it now makes me tearful, because I'm back in 1968 at 12 years old again and I FELT I WAS TRYING my best! When I hear people say now 'you can only do your best' , I think if only we had heard that phrase- it instills far more confidence than continous negative comments. BUT I think the main problem at CH Hertford was not DR or even the teaching staff, it was the lack of kind pastoral care from the housemistresses, the majority of whom, right up to the mid-seventies, had very little understanding of teenage girls. As we have seen on this forum, some of them also were disturbingly cruel.