Deputy Grecian-2007+

[englishangel]

http://www.barbaracartland.com/static/home.aspx?from=1

She out-romanced Mills & Boon and her love scenes always ended ...

I read about 50 of her books between A Levels and leaving school and haven't read a single one since. Fortunately I took them with a large pinch of salt or I would have been very disappointed.

[J.R.]

Beyond the pale ??

I thought Barbara insisted everything had to be pink !

[Eruresto]

Wahoo! I wrote 2500 words from Saturday tea to Sunday Lunch this weekend! At this rate I'll be finished really soon...

[sejintenej]

Beyond the pale ??

I thought Barbara insisted everything had to be pink !

So? Irish pink.


For the innocents amongst you the Brits shipped their surplus bodies over to the east coast of Ireland where their presence was not appreciated by the locals. After suitable adventures and alarums the Brits built a wooden pallisade to keep the rightful inhabitants out. Of course the exported Brits were so stupid that they couldn't say more than the first few letters so it became the "pale". "Beyond the pale" is thus where the heathen lurk (though in truth they lurk withing the pale).

Building of the pale is now an annual event in the City of London. The Lord Mayor is elected annually at the Mansion House and in order to keep the cheap and nasty out they still built a faggot wall or pallisade on the pavement outside.

[Jo]

Beyond the pale ??

I thought Barbara insisted everything had to be pink !

So? Irish pink.


For the innocents amongst you the Brits shipped their surplus bodies over to the east coast of Ireland where their presence was not appreciated by the locals. After suitable adventures and alarums the Brits built a wooden pallisade to keep the rightful inhabitants out. Of course the exported Brits were so stupid that they couldn't say more than the first few letters so it became the "pale". "Beyond the pale" is thus where the heathen lurk (though in truth they lurk withing the pale).

Building of the pale is now an annual event in the City of London. The Lord Mayor is elected annually at the Mansion House and in order to keep the cheap and nasty out they still built a faggot wall or pallisade on the pavement outside.

Hmm.... why let accuracy stand in the way of a plausible-sounding anecdote, eh

[Ajarn Philip]

"Meaning

Unacceptable; outside agreed standards of decency.

Origin

Firstly, let's get get clear what word we are talking about here. It's pale, and certainly not pail, - the phrase has nothing to do with buckets. The everyday use of the word pale is as the adjective meaning whitish and light in colour (and used to that effect by Procol Harum and countless paint adverts). This pale is the noun meaning 'a stake or pointed piece of wood'. It is virtually obsolete now except in this phrase, but is still in use in the associated words paling (as in paling fence) and impale (as in Dracula movies).

The paling fence is significant as the term pale became to mean the area enclosed by such a fence and later just the figurative meaning of 'the area that is enclosed and safe'. So, to be 'beyond the pale' was to be outside the area accepted as 'home'.

Catherine the Great created a 'Pale of Settlement' in Russia in 1791. This was a western border region of the country in which Jews were allowed to live. The motivation behind this was to restrict trade between Jews and native Russians. Some Jews were allowed to live, as a concession, beyond the pale.

Pales were enforced in various other European countries for similar political reasons, notably in Ireland (the Pale of Dublin) and France (the Pale of Calais, which was formed as early as 1360).

The phrase itself comes later than that. The first printed reference comes from 1657 in John Harington's lyric poem The History of Polindor and Flostella.

In that work, the character Ortheris withdraws with his beloved to a country lodge for 'quiet, calm and ease', but later venture further - 'Both Dove-like roved forth beyond the pale to planted Myrtle-walk'. Such recklessness rarely meets with a good end in 17th century verse and before long they are attacked by armed men with 'many a dire killing thrust'. The message is clearly, 'if there is a pale, you should stay inside it', which conveys exactly the meaning of the phrase as it is used today. "

A quick look on Google suggests that the original 'pale' is either as sej states or a Jewish enclosure in Moscow. Given that this is a rather English phrase, the above origin seems quite likely to me...

Of course, I might well be wrong, but isn't it fun speculating how these ancient sayings became part of the language still in use today?

And isn't the internet wonderful?

(Usually?)

[Ajarn Philip]

Actually, I logged on to talk to Josh - I often stop to eat at 8 p.m. as there is occasionally something interesting on the tv then. This evening, purely by chance, I came across a documentary on NGC about the preparation for the Theatre Royal production of The Lord of the Rings. For all sorts of reasons I had a lump in my throat.

[J.R.]

So - Is a white pale a light coloured bucket then ?

[Jo]

I don't disagree with the above at all. Sej might have been being a bit tongue in cheek, but I was taking issue with the little bit of embroidery that it referred to heathen Brits who were too dim to be able to pronounce palissade

[gma]

Have finally managed to wade through all 85 pages of this thread, blimey!! Off topic, in topic, under topic and all around topic, massive memory flashbacks and great fun , thanks to all. So, after all that, how is gemmygemmerson doing?

[englishangel]

well, from her avatar she is getting muddy.

[sejintenej]

I don't disagree with the above at all. Sej might have been being a bit tongue in cheek, but I was taking issue with the little bit of embroidery that it referred to heathen Brits who were too dim to be able to pronounce palissade

The Brits were sent over there to try to justify the British invasion in exactly the same way that Han Chinese are being sent into Tibet (whilst they eradicate the native Tibetans in the way that the British were not averse to letting a few thousand Irish die on their swords, muskets etc.) As for my cheek - yes, there's plenty of that.

Adjarn's Google reference includes mention of the Dublin Palissade. In fact the occupied lands went as far north as Carlingford (I've even read the account of King John's visit to Carlingford where he lost at cards and didn't pay up! That cheeky barsteward even gave land at Carlingford to the King of Man for the provision of one knight!). There are a couple of castles at Carlingford (which is on the Irish side of the border close to where it meets the Irish Sea).
It was a violent area up to just a few years ago; I don't go there because of the danger to my family (whom I've never met) should someone from over the water be seen there. There is a village about 8 miles west on the lough called Omeath; the British army was so afraid of the locals that they would never attempt to get to Omeath by land but only went by boat. Omeath was beyond the pale but Carlingford was within it.


One last thing, Jo; there's a post elsewhere which, if I can find it I will answer and that will tell you why I spell the word Pallisade! Otherwise go back a few years to get the answer.

[Jo]

I don't disagree with the above at all. Sej might have been being a bit tongue in cheek, but I was taking issue with the little bit of embroidery that it referred to heathen Brits who were too dim to be able to pronounce palissade

The Brits were sent over there to try to justify the British invasion in exactly the same way that Han Chinese are being sent into Tibet (whilst they eradicate the native Tibetans in the way that the British were not averse to letting a few thousand Irish die on their swords, muskets etc.) As for my cheek - yes, there's plenty of that.

Adjarn's Google reference includes mention of the Dublin Palissade. In fact the occupied lands went as far north as Carlingford (I've even read the account of King John's visit to Carlingford where he lost at cards and didn't pay up! That cheeky barsteward even gave land at Carlingford to the King of Man for the provision of one knight!). There are a couple of castles at Carlingford (which is on the Irish side of the border close to where it meets the Irish Sea).
It was a violent area up to just a few years ago; I don't go there because of the danger to my family (whom I've never met) should someone from over the water be seen there. There is a village about 8 miles west on the lough called Omeath; the British army was so afraid of the locals that they would never attempt to get to Omeath by land but only went by boat. Omeath was beyond the pale but Carlingford was within it.


One last thing, Jo; there's a post elsewhere which, if I can find it I will answer and that will tell you why I spell the word Pallisade! Otherwise go back a few years to get the answer.

I tend to trust Michael Quinion on such matters (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pal2.htm). He's not infallible, but he is an advisor to the OED and has published a number of books on derivations of words and phrases, in particular slang. He says that the word "pale" was known from the C14 (no mention of Brits being unable to pronounce palissade). There are a number of possible pales from which the term derives, including not only the Irish one(s), but also French and Russian.

I'm familiar with the recent history of Ireland, and surprised that you are still reluctant to visit. I visit my family in Derry, and have also recently been to Belfast, Armagh, Bangor, and various other places around Northern Ireland, as well as a number of places in the Republic including my birthplace in Co. Mayo.

[sejintenej]

I'm familiar with the recent history of Ireland, and surprised that you are still reluctant to visit. I visit my family in Derry, and have also recently been to Belfast, Armagh, Bangor, and various other places around Northern Ireland, as well as a number of places in the Republic including my birthplace in Co. Mayo.

Taken to PM - the troubles are not yet over.

[kerrensimmonds]

Will we get back on topic, here....?
How is Gemma?!