Unofficial Christ's Hospital Forum

gnuvag wrote:Prison is punishment but also rehabilitation.

Is there really much evidence for rehabilitation???
Does your argument go for repeat repeat offenders as well???
Its all very well saying it's uncivilised to say "let them die" but we were talking about a convicted killer who wanted to kill himself and was forced not to - force fed when he wouldn't eat - stomach pumped when he overdosed (is that civilised behaviour???) at some substantial expense - when that money could arguably be better spent elsewhere - especially under those circumstances.

And then drugs - yes there is a difference between crack and marijuana but Jude was talking about drug dealers - scum of the earth who don't care what sh1t they sell and how young or impressionable the buyers are. If there was ever a good argument for the death penalty - it would be for drug dealers - murderers by proxy.

gnuvag wrote:Jude - quite a sweeping statement about drugs - there's a bit of difference between, for example, marijuana and crack.

Don't underestimate the dangers of marijuana.

Cannabis / Marijuana is the main recreational drug of choice for the New Labour Elite, their acolytes and many ethnic minorities in this country.

The reasons possibly why the drug has been downgraded in class and the media largely ignore the potential harmful health effects, in contrast to the attitudes displayed regarding tobacco. I speak as a lifelong non smoker so have no axe to grind.

http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A36_0_2_0_C/

Rory - Agreed that in Ian Huntly's case it is difficult to argue against the people who are saying he should be allowed to kill himself, although I still would. I was commenting on the generalisations of how to treat prisoners in general, not just Huntly.

A figure quoted by Jude in an earlier post was that 89% of offenders are released only to reoffend - if true, that's not good. However that does mean that hopefully 11% are rehabilitated back into society, and that is worth the effort alone. We should be working to ensure that that figure gets higher, not just locking people up and throwing away the key, or killing them.

I also don't think you can say all drug dealers are scum of the earth either - agreed there are plenty who should be behind bars - but there are also plenty who supply, for example, marijuana to lots of people who smoke it happily in the confines of their own home without hurting anyone. People (or their parents) who take drugs are ultimately responsible for their choices, not the people who supply it, no matter how immoral they are.

Mid A 15 - I don't underestimate the dangers of marijuana, but I don't overestimate them either. It's still a significantly safer drug than alcohol or niccotine, and I don't see any reason why it shouldn't have the same drug classification as those. What has the fact that ethnic minorities (and New Labour Elite acolytes) smoke it got to do with anything? Are you saying that Labour are trying to win votes with a soft attitude towards it?

I haven't heard of AIM before, but after a cursory glance at their website they don't appear to be neutral, they strike me as a right-wing pro-Bush organisation, but I might be totally wrong.

gnuvag wrote:A figure quoted by Jude in an earlier post was that 89% of offenders are released only to reoffend - if true, that's not good. However that does mean that hopefully 11% are rehabilitated back into society, and that is worth the effort alone. We should be working to ensure that that figure gets higher, not just locking people up and throwing away the key, or killing them.

I also don't think you can say all drug dealers are scum of the earth either - agreed there are plenty who should be behind bars - but there are also plenty who supply, for example, marijuana to lots of people who smoke it happily in the confines of their own home without hurting anyone. People (or their parents) who take drugs are ultimately responsible for their choices, not the people who supply it, no matter how immoral they are.

Mid A 15 - I don't underestimate the dangers of marijuana, but I don't overestimate them either. It's still a significantly safer drug than alcohol or niccotine, and I don't see any reason why it shouldn't have the same drug classification as those. What has the fact that ethnic minorities (and New Labour Elite acolytes) smoke it got to do with anything? Are you saying that Labour are trying to win votes with a soft attitude towards it?

I haven't heard of AIM before, but after a cursory glance at their website they don't appear to be neutral, they strike me as a right-wing pro-Bush organisation, but I might be totally wrong.

AS you don't put your gender or a real name it is difficultto see where you are coming from.. as a nurse, and now one that is "retired" but keeps up with all the medical things of today (my GP wants me to go train as an extra GP for his practice!) I can tell you from personal experience that cannabis is DEADLY. I had a young girl here who had already tried it and had had the good floaty experience, but the next time it was a much STRONGER batch and I spent the entire night with her having fits and stopping breathing - there is no comparasion to cigarettes and alcohhol - cannabis like an "E" can KILL you the 1st time you take it - smoking ciggarettes takes a bit longer! (and alcohol too uless you are so drunk you walk under a bus etc....)

The reason so many petty criminals re-offend is that life on the inside is easy - there is a routine that they can follow, they get looked after, and they become institutionalised - thus the repeats. However the real tradgedy is that their crimes often become greater and more violent. As for those who are psychopathically (long word!) gene'd they will never be remorseful, and a life in prison means NOTHING to them - they still see the sun the sky, other people, there is no real deterrent as far as I can see for anyone to go to prison - heck with a roof over my head, all the educational stuff free on hand, a warm bed, and 3 good meals a day I am tempted to commit a crime to have time in there - I get looked after then - sorry but prison is TOO SOFT.

gnuvag wrote:Mid A 15 - I don't underestimate the dangers of marijuana, but I don't overestimate them either. It's still a significantly safer drug than alcohol or niccotine, and I don't see any reason why it shouldn't have the same drug classification as those. What has the fact that ethnic minorities (and New Labour Elite acolytes) smoke it got to do with anything? Are you saying that Labour are trying to win votes with a soft attitude towards it?

I haven't heard of AIM before, but after a cursory glance at their website they don't appear to be neutral, they strike me as a right-wing pro-Bush organisation, but I might be totally wrong.

Is it safer though? It is not use of alcohol that is dangerous but abuse. For example medics are pretty unanimous that a glass or two of red wine a day can protect against heart attacks. Taken to excess though then, yes, alcohol becomes dangerous like any drug taken to excess.

Is tobacco more dangerous? The article clearly states that there are 50 to 70 percent more known carcinogens in marijuana smoke than tobacco smoke so at best I'd call your assertion debatable there.

I don't think Labour are consciously after votes (although that may be a desirable by product) in adopting a soft approach to cannabis. I think the motivation is more reluctance to upset ethnic minorities for reasons of political correctness in the present tense climate in which we live.

Finally I also have no idea whether AIM is right wing or not. I do know that the medical sources quoted in the article have some credence though.

I wonder why I don't see similar articles in The Guardian? Maybe because it is a left wing pro Blair paper

Sorry accidentally posted twice

Mid A 15 wrote:Sorry accidentally posted twice

Be honest - you just wanted to boost youir points to get your buttons before me!!!

Jude, I agree with you about prison life being too soft on many offenders. It should offer rehabilitation and reeducation, but it shouldn't be a place where people have an easy life and can sit around watching telly or computer games!

On to Marijuana, can you (Jude) provide any documented evidence to support your claim that "cannabis can kill you the first time you take it"? I'm talking about deaths directly caused by the drug, not by being stoned and walking in front of a bus or choking on your own vomit, as you could do when drunk.

Regarding the AIM website (Mid A 15), I've already mentioned concerns about the likely agenda and political bias of this site, as yet unverified, and therefore the reliability of their findings. With a very short search, I've already found plenty of (more, I would venture) credible sources that completely refute the claims in that article. Have a read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_iss ... f_cannabis

Or, for a condensed version, read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marijuana

Under the heading "Health issues and the effects of cannabis" you can read:

"in a study done by the University of California Los Angeles in 2006 [NB: 7 years more recent than research quoted in the AIM article], that even heavy marijuana smokers do not increase their risk for lung cancer."

and also:

"According to a United Kingdom government report, using cannabis is less dangerous than both tobacco and alcohol in social harms, physical harm and addiction"

Alcohol in moderation is seen to be fine these days - agreed, it is the abuse of it that is the problem. But the abuse of it in Britain is a fantastically large problem, both socially, societally, medically - but don't forget it keeps the population under control and keeps those taxes rolling in - that's why it is tolerated. And if people die before they can claim their state pensions, so much the better.

Nicotine in even very small quantities is still a significant risk to health.

Worth a quick read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_in_Media

Incidentally, just reread your comments Jude about how it isn't possible to kill yourself with alcohol the first time you try it unless you walk in front of a bus - on the contrary surely it's very easy to OD on alcohol the first time?

gnuvag wrote:Worth a quick read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_in_Media

Incidentally, just reread your comments Jude about how it isn't possible to kill yourself with alcohol the first time you try it unless you walk in front of a bus - on the contrary surely it's very easy to OD on alcohol the first time?

In this day and age I doubt there is anyone stupid enough to OD on alcohol enough to die on their first attempt - the body passes out often well before that stage is reached!

Cannabis - depending on whether it is resin or flake - strength varies a great deal, and in resin there are a huge number of additives that pushers add to make up the oz. Pure resin in a large enough dose can put the body into a stupour, which then can cause dehydration (side effect like the muncies) and death by asphixiation. the girl i nursed with te fits was in and out of conciousness and stopped breathing once.. That to me is enough evidence! Also I note you didn't mention "E" - I wonder why not? That also dehydrates the body, causes the body temperature to increase and death occurs (although not being a forensic Pathologist) I can't remember what the terminology for the cause of death is with "E"... Heart failure I expect...

And before you ask - yes I have had cannabis - I had it quite a lot 8 years ago to help with pain relief - I have had nice times with it but also very scary times - where I spent 4 hours getting up out of bed, to go downstairs to check the patio door was locked to go back upstairs to bed, only to think I had imagined it and repeated it henceforth... I have banned the drug from the house and property completely as I no longer see it as a "safe" drug.

To add to the why we shouldn't smoke cannabis - the munchies you get afterwards distends teh stomach as the brain cannot receive the message that your stomach is full - perhaps that is why it is so dangerous - vomitting whilst unconscious.... not to mention mood swings and weight gain!!

You doubt there is anyone stupid enough to OD on alcohol at the first attempt? And I would doubt that there is anyone stupid enough to OD on marijuana at the first attempt, but those are just our opinions, not facts, which is why I was asking you to back up your opinions with references!

Similarly, can you provide sources to back up your claims of the serious effects of additives in cannabis resin? What other medical conditions did the girl you nursed have? Allergies? Psychological problems? Had she taken other drugs?

Indeed one of the possible causes of death from taking ecstasy is dehydration, from forgetting to drink as much water as your body needs. Admittedly it is an unfortunate side-effect, but one that is rarely problematic, let alone fatal. Ecstasy deaths in the UK compared to the number of users is extremely low.

I presume you're not claiming "the munchies" is a serious problem?! I haven't seen too many fat marijuana users!

gnuvag wrote:I presume you're not claiming "the munchies" is a serious problem?! I haven't seen too many fat marijuana users!

Oh, rats, I was going to bring this back on topic by suggesting that potential IVF candidates should be banned from using marijuana precisely because the resultant munchies might cause weight gain...........

Interesting little debate that you have going here. I'm drawn to both sides of this one. I certainly think that it is a little presumptuous to accept one person's bad reaction to cannabis as a generalization regarding its effects. It sounds to me like the girl in question may have had a preexisting breathing problem, perhaps asthma. I had a friend who had a similar, albeit less severe reaction to cannabis.

That said, my own experiences with the substance suggest to me that it can have longer term pyscological effects that most users ignore or are not aware of.

On the flip side again, is cannabis the cause or the symptom? That is, does cannabis bring about depression, or does its use proceede depression?

Alcohol can certainly have devestating effects, even in the short term. This is particularly obvious here, where young people are less aware of their own tolerance, or lack of, to drink and many people die or become seriously sick from overindulgence as soon as they reach the legal age. I therefore wonder whether one possible explanation for bad reactions to cannabis is that people are more likely to overindulge as the illegality of the substance means that they are unaware of what can "safely" be taken and what users should do while under the influence.

I would like to see cannabis legalized, if only so that it can be used appropriately by those who wish to do so. As Jude points out, dealers can splice many other things into their merchandise to increase their profit. A legallized system would not be so fallible and users would benefit from using in a safe and friendly environment.

I'm going to trust Jude on her cannabis comments - she does live in Stonehouse after all...

Oh, God - I think I'm turning into JR!!!!

"Fly me to the Moon....................... !!"