Unofficial Christ's Hospital Forum

michael scuffil wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:41 pm As boarding schools were overwhelmingly upper-middle class, and so were most writers, it is not too surprising that this was the ethos reflected.

Like the press and MPs we do forget the "other class" of boarding schools - borstals - whose form of education seems not to have been of any quality

Belatedly, I would agree with Keibat's point about the quite disgraceful and xenophobic tone of the popular press in this country. The one-time doyen of tabloid publishing Lord Beaverbrook famously said that the purpose of newspapers was not to print news but to make propaganda. And I suppose, rather inevitably, propaganda is usually made on behalf of those who have the money to run media groups rather than those who don't. In my days in magazine journalism whenever I was introduced to reporters off The Mail and The Express (especially if they were younger) they would look a bit shamefaced and try to assure you that not everyone on the paper shared the reactionary opinions of the proprietor and editor. If they were off The Sun they wouldn't have looked shamefaced because they wouldn't have known how. The Telegraph has always been mockingly known as The Torygraph by its own journalists, and indeed I used to know the editor of the "Peterborough" column who was always at pains to tell me that the paper was read for things like the crossword and the gardening coverage and wasn't subscribed to entirely by dyspeptic retired colonels from Tunbridge Wells.
Now as to the rest of Europe, the American media research group Freedom House tells us that Finland has the greatest readership of serious independent broadsheets (think The Guardian, Indie and FT) and also that the Finns have the best educational standards in Europe. Some connection here?

.... then there's always the new 'FAKE' News.

Now as to the rest of Europe, the American media research group Freedom House tells us that Finland has the greatest readership of serious independent broadsheets (think The Guardian, Indie and FT) and also that the Finns have the best educational standards in Europe. Some connection here?

It is constantly being said that the Finns have the best educational standards in Europe. But there is no one standard. The Finns are better than anyone else at achieving their own standards. My brother OB (whom some here may know) was a primary school headmaster for many years and was sent on a government fact-finding tour to many countries, including Finland. He was appalled by what he saw there. Dreary teacher-lecture-type lessons, learning by rote, and no school inspections.

michael scuffil wrote: ↑Sun May 06, 2018 6:57 pm
It is constantly being said that the Finns have the best educational standards in Europe. But there is no one standard. The Finns are better than anyone else at achieving their own standards.

It is very much a question of what YOU as an indivdual consider high standards. I suspect from posts here that there are many who consider that current UK standards, GCSE as an example, are well down on those the more elderly of us were required to meet. Different countries concentrate or include subjects which other countries ignore; for example France teaches civic behaviour and responsibility from the age of six whilst India seems to be renouned for the numbers of mathematicians it produces for the software industries.

It is also a question of parental pressure - Chinese parents very often put intense pressure (including substantial bribes) on their children to do well. I have just returned from staying with the family of the youngest ever person to qualify as an insurance broker and her Chinese siblings are not far behind. The pressures being put on her young neices at school in the US are immense and the results at about 13 and 11 are very visible - way beyond my abilities at any age.

My brother OB (whom some here may know) was a primary school headmaster for many years and was sent on a government fact-finding tour to many countries, including Finland. He was appalled by what he saw there. Dreary teacher-lecture-type lessons, learning by rote, and no school inspections.

Learning by rote has advantages and disadvantages. I remember under Mr Crosland we were encouraged to think outside the envelope and it is this which makes the UK an inventing country. By contrast France also teaches by rote and individual thinking or suggestions outside "approved" learning are frowned upon from a great height. Thus you get a mass of well educated followers whose wish to move outside approved thinking has been suppressed since ear;y childhood. There are exceptions - the "grandes ecoles" are good but supply a tiny minority of the needs.

No school inspectors? The way UK inspectors seem to work is a joke and any country which goes that particular route is in trouble. That is not to say that there is no place for them but what think ye of inspectors who can get a teacher sacked for teaching that Pi is not the 3.000 as required in that US state?

There are other factors, apart from all those emphasised so far in this thread, concerning the “success” of education. For example there are genetics and cultural traditions. At the risk of being labelled “racist” there are clear indications of apparently inherited genetic factors in the academic ability of some families. You probably know some such families. By extension this is applicable to larger ethnic groups (say the Chinese and many African groups), in spite of the furor which greeted the book “The Bell Curve” which made a similar point. Yet no one can deny there are genetic differences between these two groups. They result in dissimilar skin colour, average height, physical strength – consider numbers of athletic record holders and USA professional sportsmen who play certain games - susceptibility to certain diseases and lots more. So it is entirely reasonable that there are also broad genetic differences relevant to academic achievement, however it is measured.

However cultural traditions too play a great role and the general desire for education varies greatly between these two cultural groups.

It is equally clear that there are relevant socio-economic factors. Poor nations cannot afford a decent education system.

A classic example of culture spurring educational advancement results from comparison of what happened in South Korea and Ghana after the 1960s, when both nations received post-colonial independence. At that time they had similar economic situations, natural resources, etc.

Unpalatable though it is today, genetic and other factors should be taken into consideration in this discussion of the results of any educational system. Yet all human groups share many, many, many more genetic characteristics than divide them.

.Like the press and MPs we do forget the "other class" of boarding schools - borstals - whose form of education seems not to have been of any quality"

There were two other types of boarding school, both run by the Army: Apprentice Colleges and Junior Leader Regiments. Entry, until ROSLA, was 15 and both types were overwhelmed with applications. Both were run on military lines and the pupils wore uniform, but there was a very strong emphasis on academic subjects and attaining both trade and educational qualifications. The difference between the two was that Apprentice Colleges took higher qualified entrants and trained them for technical trades, whereas JLRs took less well qualified entrants and trained them for more 'hands-on' trades such as radio operator. The standards were high and the vast majority did very well in adult service, many going on to warrant and commissioned ranks. Among the many advantages were that the pupils were not only fully outfitted with clothing and necessaries, but they also received pay and free travel (and cost their parents nothing)!!! Truly, a win-win situation.
David

Many apologies. For some reason my previous post has come out in very large font and I do not know how to change it to 'normal.' Sorry!

Foureyes wrote: ↑Fri May 18, 2018 11:01 am Many apologies. For some reason my previous post has come out in very large font and I do not know how to change it to 'normal.' Sorry!

All sorted for you, David. The wonders of 'IT' !! John.

Regardless of which country has the best system, CH isn't even in the top 100 of UK schools at GCSE Grades A* and A or A Level Passes Grade A* and A.

https://www.best-schools.co.uk/uk-schoo ... se-grades/

https://www.best-schools.co.uk/uk-schoo ... el-passes/

Foureyes wrote: ↑Fri May 18, 2018 10:55 am .Like the press and MPs we do forget the "other class" of boarding schools - borstals - whose form of education seems not to have been of any quality"

There were two other types of boarding school, both run by the Army: Apprentice Colleges and Junior Leader Regiments.

Shock, horror; I stand properly corrected. What makes it worse is that one of my offspring worked in one of those and discovered that many of the entrants are virtually illiterate when they start. Their course is, from memory, only six months and is run by a well known company rather than having army personnel as instructors.

I was thinking about rather further back in time - to the 1960s. At that time the Apprentices spent 3 years (if I remember rightly) and the Junior Leaders six months to two years depending on their age when they joined. They could not graduate until they reached the minimum age for man's service. The first problem came with the Raising of the School Leaving Age (ROSLA) from 15 to 16, but the Army system adjusted to that. Then the Army itself decided that Junior Leaders should be amalgamated with Apprentices - even though the JLR units were very successful, in line with the motto "If it's working, it needs to be reorganised" But you are quite right about the illiteracy among some of the JLR intake - which was cured in every case.
I once met a soldier who was totally illiterate at the time he was conscripted. He told me that in the train to his first unit he knew the name of his destination, but could not read the noticeboards during the journey and had to ask his fellow passengers as they drew into each station - "Is this Newton Abbot?"

I left CH in 66 and was a student apprentice at Vickers, on a 1-3-1. Other apprenticeships were 5 - 7 years I think.
On one of my university holidays, I was asked to work alongside a young Sikh, who although he could make a good approximation of the tool he was making (in the apprentice school we all made our own tools, screw drivers etc), the measurements were all over the place.
At the first tea break I was able to inform the instructors that he could not read.
Still have no idea how he got that far.

John,
"1-3-1"??
David

One year industry, three years university, one year industry