Charitable status of independent schools

[judy]

I am slightly perturbed about the general tone of this thread. Possibly because I have a fairly strong left wing perspective. I don't think that would automatically exclude me from supporting the idea of CH. I think in selecting for CH the balance between intelligence, financial need and emotional/social need probably need to be calculated in every case. I know that by the time my sister was ready for secondary school my parents earned "too much" for her to attend. They were both residential child care workers so it was hardly an excessive wage. The consequences of that decision have, however been lifelong. She was not an unloved child or damaged in anyway by my parents but the impact on her education of effectively living in a children's home was that survival meant not achieving educationally although she was just as bright as I was. She did eventually go to University but not until much later in her adult life and did well there but it was too late to make a meaningful difference in terms of her career. I think she would have done better at CH but I felt no wish to send my own children away to school or even to have them privately educated. They have both achieved reasonably well in their Glasgow comprehensive although if they had worked harder they would have probably achieved at an excellent level. What they definitely do both have that I,and many others did not achieve until a lot later, are skills in managing relationships with a diversity of people , understanding about the impact of different life experiences and well developed empathy. It has at times been painful getting to this point and life for them and me might have been easier if they were away at school but overall I think the benefits outweigh the costs. I guess what I am saying is that while recognising that CH is an honourable, positive and unique institution there are plenty of places where children can gain a reasonable education and maybe have experiences that would not be so easy to gain at CH or any other public school. I think we should be wary about knocking state education and indeed assuming that sharing a learning space with other children who present problems or difficulties is onl;y negative.

Sorry about the gentle rant but I have seen too many children who have been damaged through trauma, abuse or neglect being further hurt by attitudes that suggest they don't deserve to be educated alongside other "brighter" or "better behaved " children.

[gma]

I think we should be wary about knocking state education and indeed assuming that sharing a learning space with other children who present problems or difficulties is onl;y negative.

Sorry about the gentle rant but I have seen too many children who have been damaged through trauma, abuse or neglect being further hurt by attitudes that suggest they don't deserve to be educated alongside other "brighter" or "better behaved " children.

I am sorry Judy, if you thought that I believe that segregation is the answer as I absolutely don't; but I do believe that no more than a student should be left behind in a class full of bright children, equally no bright student should be held back where the class achievement level is not so high. I also have a profound belief that educational funding should be provided to support those children who are have learning needs and social funding for those that have behavioural or medical needs, but in no way should those children that need the extra help be shovelled into mainstream schools to help balance a budget in the DoE which is excatly what is happening now. Streaming not segregation allows more children to rise through the ranks not less. Mainstream allocation of places leaves behind those with learning needs, physical or mental cahllenges and those who are just not as bright as well as those who are 'too' bright.

Of my siblings, 1 went to 'public' day school, 3 to state comprehensives and I to CH on a scholarship. I promise you that no-one who meets us would be unable to tell the difference, I accept that things have moved on since the '70's but not always for the better!

[judy]

I would definitely support the idea of streaming but I think it has to be manged carefully and there needs to be a clear recognition that things can change for children so there is no requirement for children to remain fixed in a particular intellectual, social or emotional box. I agree with your comments about integrating children as a money saving exercise but truly individualised support of vulnerable children in mainstream settings can produce amazing results both intellectually and socially. I think it can also have enormously important results for other children if it is well handled. I would recommend to anyone who has not read it a book by Bruce Perry, an American child psychiatrist, called "The Boy who was Raised as as a Dog and Other Stories from a Child Psychiatrist's Notebook". He describes talking to a class of 6/7 year old children about one of their classmates who was on the edge of being thrown out of school. This wee boy was an adopted Romanian orphan who really found it hard to cope with the social and intellectual demands of school but whose next stage of development demanded the very experience he was struggling with. With the boy's consent Bruce talked to the class about his experiences and the impact they had had and how amazing it was that the little boy was even alive let alone able to cope as well as he did. He explained brain development and the impact of trauma on the developing brain. Those kids responded with enormous concern and started to help the wee boy to learn the social skills he needed and he became a popuar and valued member of the school community. As Bruce said he will always talk the language of love and relationships with an accent but he will be able to achieve at school and in work and will be able to love his own kids. Everyone in that situation benefited. If he had been educated in a special environment he would never have achieved the level he did and the other children would have been deprived of an important lesson about difference, diversity and development. They also developed empathy and understanding.

[sejintenej]

I am sorry Judy, if you thought that I believe that segregation is the answer as I absolutely don't; but I do believe that no more than a student should be left behind in a class full of bright children, equally no bright student should be held back where the class achievement level is not so high.

Gerrie; we are going to have to stop agreeing like this - peeps will start talking.
In CH generally we did not mix with people who were considerably more or less intelligent than ourselves. There were the few who stood out but we were not in a situation to learn from the experience.

However, in my second job I was living in a students' hostel in Brighton where most of the other residents were studying to be librarians - I probably know as much about Dewey as them!!! However, these were University students and relatively very intelligent and we got to mix a lot. Almost every evening there would be a discussion but with specific rules; the actual subject could not be mentioned and every sentence had to use tonal changes. (You can say "the cat sat on the mat" but when spoken that can have perhaps ten different meanings and we were not allowed the obvious meaning). I promise you that that was a mindblowing exercise - it really made you think on your feet and to use the brain in a way that CH never even attempted to do. I've seen TV programmes where they try to go half way by banning a word (say yes on no) - and fail.

I mentioned elsewhere the negative effects of mind-twisters - these were amateurs and very definitely positive. The concepts could have done a lot for CH pupils in my day by
a) making them "think on their feet"
b) making them ignore the obvious,
c) making them control their normal impulses, and
c) improving their use of English

Mixing in contriolled situations with far cleverer people can definitely help the "backward" and also exposes the cleverer ones to a class different to that they usually mix with.

[onewestguncopse]

I note in the paper, that many private schools have abolished scholarships in favour of CH style means tested bursaries. I also hear from a reliable source that Eton plans to offer over 50% of its places on a means tested basis (ie CH like) and hopes that figure will rise as its fundraising for a new endowment beds down. This is a by product of the change in the charity laws that is good for society as a whole but does of course erode the CH USP. We will be competing for able students from 'regular' backgrounds like never before. That being said, the recession should boost our number of applicants as the middle classes look for more 'bursaries' to help fund their children's education.

Interesing times ...

[Hopeful_2009_Dep]

They have both achieved reasonably well in their Glasgow comprehensive although if they had worked harder they would have probably achieved at an excellent level. I guess what I am saying is that while recognising that CH is an honourable, positive and unique institution there are plenty of places where children can gain a reasonable education and maybe have experiences that would not be so easy to gain at CH or any other public school. I think we should be wary about knocking state education and indeed assuming that sharing a learning space with other children who present problems or difficulties is onl;y negative.

I'm a little confused. Your children acheived reasonably well, enough to get them through 6th form, university? That's good, but for a lot of comprehensive schools [my current school included] I would be surprised if I acheive anything extraordinary at the end of this school year. This is because, I think, the other very disruptive or abusive people in my classes. Science for example we are grouped by 'ability'. For me this means being sometimes verbally abused, or my questions being unanswered because 'that's too advanced, you don't need to know that.'. Basicly, the school I'm at is uncompassionate or uncaring about how I and others feel in lessons. No you can't be in a group with people who won't throw things at you, you need to be with your 'ability set'. This set includes people who are told the date three times and still get it wrong.
This is giving me a negative view of education, it's all being pushed towards tests. 'You can pass GCSEs without that information.' And if I just want to know why just out of interest? 'We're here to help you pass exams, not to teach things you don't need to know.'

Please trust me, sharing a learning space with people who present such problems IS only negative.

I would really love to have a private education, but currently CH is the only school we can afford. I can live without some experiences if all-round I'm going to have a better quality of schooling [if I'm extraordinarily lucky enough to get in].

[loringa]

Hopeful Dep 2009 wrote

I'm a little confused. Your children acheived reasonably well, enough to get them through 6th form, university? That's good, but for a lot of comprehensive schools [my current school included] I would be surprised if I acheive anything extraordinary at the end of this school year. This is because, I think, the other very disruptive or abusive people in my classes. Science for example we are grouped by 'ability'. For me this means being sometimes verbally abused, or my questions being unanswered because 'that's too advanced, you don't need to know that.'. Basicly, the school I'm at is uncompassionate or uncaring about how I and others feel in lessons. No you can't be in a group with people who won't throw things at you, you need to be with your 'ability set'. This set includes people who are told the date three times and still get it wrong.
This is giving me a negative view of education, it's all being pushed towards tests. 'You can pass GCSEs without that information.' And if I just want to know why just out of interest? 'We're here to help you pass exams, not to teach things you don't need to know.'

Please trust me, sharing a learning space with people who present such problems IS only negative.

I would really love to have a private education, but currently CH is the only school we can afford. I can live without some experiences if all-round I'm going to have a better quality of schooling [if I'm extraordinarily lucky enough to get in

Well said indeed. I thought we had finally moved away from the sort of pseudo-egalitarian, social engineering nonsense that decided that everyone benefited from inclusive education. The very last thing the hard-working, enthusiastic student needs is to be in class with those who either don't want or do not have the ability to learn. Children with special needs, whatever they are, and those who are simply difficult and disruptive should certainly receive support but their very presence in a mainstream class can only hinder the education of the remainder. My own daughter has just started in the reception class at one of our local primary schools. I hope she will flourish there but if there is anything in the school that makes it difficult for her to learn then I shall have no hesitation whatsoever in taking her out and will find the necessary money to educate her privately though this is not something I wish to do. There is very little that is more important than the education a child receives as this, almost more than anything else, will determine the opportunities available to them in the future. I have every possible sympathy with Hopeful_2009 and wish him / her all the very best. In my opinion, he or she seems just the sort of person likely to benefit from a CH education.

[Hopeful_2009_Dep]

I'm a little confused. Your children acheived reasonably well, enough to get them through 6th form, university? That's good, but for a lot of comprehensive schools [my current school included] I would be surprised if I acheive anything extraordinary at the end of this school year. This is because, I think, the other very disruptive or abusive people in my classes. Science for example we are grouped by 'ability'. For me this means being sometimes verbally abused, or my questions being unanswered because 'that's too advanced, you don't need to know that.'. Basicly, the school I'm at is uncompassionate or uncaring about how I and others feel in lessons. No you can't be in a group with people who won't throw things at you, you need to be with your 'ability set'. This set includes people who are told the date three times and still get it wrong.
This is giving me a negative view of education, it's all being pushed towards tests. 'You can pass GCSEs without that information.' And if I just want to know why just out of interest? 'We're here to help you pass exams, not to teach things you don't need to know.'

Please trust me, sharing a learning space with people who present such problems IS only negative.

I would really love to have a private education, but currently CH is the only school we can afford. I can live without some experiences if all-round I'm going to have a better quality of schooling [if I'm extraordinarily lucky enough to get in].[/quote]

Well said indeed. I thought we had finally moved away from the sort of pseudo-egalitarian, social engineering nonsense that decided that everyone benefited from inclusive education. The very last thing the hard-working, enthusiastic student needs is to be in class with those who either don't want or do not have the ability to learn. Children with special needs, whatever they are, and those who are simply difficult and disruptive should certainly receive support but their very presence in a mainstream class can only hinder the education of the remainder. My own daughter has just started in the reception class at one of our local primary schools. I hope she will flourish there but if there is anything in the school that makes it difficult for her to learn then I shall have no hesitation whatsoever in taking her out and will find the necessary money to educate her privately though this is not something I wish to do. There is very little that is more important than the education a child receives as this, almost more than anything else, will determine the opportunities available to them in the future. I have every possible sympathy with Hopeful_2009 and wish him / her all the very best. In my opinion, he or she seems just the sort of person likely to benefit from a CH education.[/quote]

Thank you, I hope your daughter does well, and [for the first years at least] enjoys and embraces the learning experience.
As far as I'm aware in my area the primary schools are great places to be as they only go up to year 4. [It's strange, we go R-Yr4 Yr5-Yr8 Yr-9-end of 6th form] I think this is better when you are younger but when you get into the 'college' the youngest kids are 13/14 so theres already drink and sometimes drug habits, and theres no one young enough to see the bad effects and not go down that path.
Your daughter should be allowed to do well at state school and not cost more money than necessary, hey everyone should. Sadly in some places this isn't the case but I really hope your daughter does well for herself.

Also thank you for saying that, it means a lot. I'm a girl by the way

[jhopgood]

Wasn;t sure where to put this but in theIndependent http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugb ... 51734.html
the following appears

Mr Davey, a teacher at Christ's Hospital School for disadvantaged pupils in Sussex,

I can't imagine Davey agreed to that adjective but it almost makes us look as though we would all have qualified for the Para-olympics.

There really is a case for some corrective advertising about CH

[Mid A 15]

Wasn;t sure where to put this but in theIndependent http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugb ... 51734.html
the following appears

Mr Davey, a teacher at Christ's Hospital School for disadvantaged pupils in Sussex,

I can't imagine Davey agreed to that adjective but it almost makes us look as though we would all have qualified for the Para-olympics.

There really is a case for some corrective advertising about CH

Whilst undoubtedly inaccurate in some ways at least such a description acknowledges that CH is not a conventional public (private) school.

[Hopeful_2009_Dep]

They have both achieved reasonably well in their Glasgow comprehensive although if they had worked harder they would have probably achieved at an excellent level. I guess what I am saying is that while recognising that CH is an honourable, positive and unique institution there are plenty of places where children can gain a reasonable education and maybe have experiences that would not be so easy to gain at CH or any other public school. I think we should be wary about knocking state education and indeed assuming that sharing a learning space with other children who present problems or difficulties is onl;y negative.

I'm a little confused. Your children acheived reasonably well, enough to get them through 6th form, university? That's good, but for a lot of comprehensive schools [my current school included] I would be surprised if I acheive anything extraordinary at the end of this school year. This is because, I think, the other very disruptive or abusive people in my classes. Science for example we are grouped by 'ability'. For me this means being sometimes verbally abused, or my questions being unanswered because 'that's too advanced, you don't need to know that.'. Basicly, the school I'm at is uncompassionate or uncaring about how I and others feel in lessons. No you can't be in a group with people who won't throw things at you, you need to be with your 'ability set'. This set includes people who are told the date three times and still get it wrong.
This is giving me a negative view of education, it's all being pushed towards tests. 'You can pass GCSEs without that information.' And if I just want to know why just out of interest? 'We're here to help you pass exams, not to teach things you don't need to know.'

Please trust me, sharing a learning space with people who present such problems IS only negative.

I would really love to have a private education, but currently CH is the only school we can afford. I can live without some experiences if all-round I'm going to have a better quality of schooling [if I'm extraordinarily lucky enough to get in].

I had roughly the same experiences at a Grammar School. I was the last year before it went Independent, music was my passion, was teaching myself composition and felt frustrated by the STAFF there ("Why on earth would YOU want to listen to Schoenberg for Page you moron?").

I think you are making a big mistake if you believe that you won't find dunces and bullies at private schools. All schools tend to be the same kind of social mix in the end.

Yes, I see what you are saying, but I think I would rather be bullied at a school like CH [I've heard bullying is dealth with pretty well from my friends] than a school like mine, where bullying is basicly dismissed as 'childish fun' and what I suppose could be classes as assult [I was pinned by the throat to a changing room wall because I wasn't wear jeans - someone had tried to organise a protest again the 'black trousers' rule] is punished by two days in 'time out' a room where you are in isolation.

[Ajarn Philip]

I had roughly the same experiences at a Grammar School. I was the last year before it went Independent, music was my passion, was teaching myself composition and felt frustrated by the STAFF there ("Why on earth would YOU want to listen to Schoenberg for Page you moron?").

I think you are making a big mistake if you believe that you won't find dunces and bullies at private schools. All schools tend to be the same kind of social mix in the end.

I confess, I'm with Hopeful on this one - don't you think your passion for music might have been rather more encouraged at CH? As far as bullies are concerned, it's how they are dealt that is important.

[blondie95]

I see Manchester Grammar school foundation is to be one of the guinea pigs for the Charity Commissions public benefit test!

[Ajarn Philip]

Charity Commissions public benefit test!

That's twice you've mentioned it, Amy, and I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about! Please enlighten me, or do I have to google it tomorrow?

[blondie95]

Charity Commissions public benefit test!

That's twice you've mentioned it, Amy, and I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about! Please enlighten me, or do I have to google it tomorrow?

the charity commission have decided that certain charitable institutions now need to be tested to ensure they are providing a public benefit-in particular schools (independent/private) and faith based organisations. They have issued guidelines and have now 12 guniea pig charities to test their guidelines/test on! These charities are being tested mainly because they are charities by statue law rather than having applied to the charity commission to become one and therefore 'checked'.
These charities have to demonstrate they are providing i believe a substantial benefit to the public....which is why the recent news about Eton increasing the numbers of scholarships/means tested fees places are shooting up-because otherwise are they providing a public benefit.

Hope this clears it up