Were 19th century Grecians known as the Upper 4th?

[DavebytheSea]

When I was at Housey in the middle years of the last century, there were a number of photographs of past Buttoned Grecians dating back to the 1880s. These were placed outside Flecker's study and the classics rooms of Flecker and MacNutt. These framed photos, alas, have been removed (and lost?) during the transformation of this area into reception areas etc.

Among these photographs was one of the Buttoned Grecians of the year 1886 including my grandfather Arthur Seaman. I have his Leaving Bible and a number of leather-bound prizes awarded for Maths and Chemistry and richly embossed in gold with the Housey Crest. One of these states that it was awarded to Arthur Seaman of the Upper Fourth in 1886 by the Governors - ie the year that he left if the date in his bible is to be believed.

Can any historian of the school throw any light on this? There is something trundling around in the back of my mind that Boyer (of Lamb and Coleridge fame) was Master of the Upper Fourth, but I could be wrong.

[Mid A 15]

I've looked in Christ's Hospital by G.A.T. Allan as revised by JE Morpurgo. However I can find no reference I'm afraid so the answer is: I don't know if 19th Century Grecians were known as the Upper Fourth.

Has Arthur Seaman any connection to CME Seaman or is the name coincidence?

[englishangel]

Probably not relevant, but the Upper Fourth at Hertford was what is called year 9 in State schools. i.e. 13-14 year olds, last year before starting GCSEs.

This was because at one time there was a prep department and First Form were Year 5, 9-10 year olds.

[DavebytheSea]

Not any close relation certainly. Arthur Seaman was a member of the Ironmongers and had six children including my mother who was the eldest. Her sister Mary is still living in Chichester aged 104 and her brother Walter (95) still drives a sports car in E Sussex - you have been warned!

[loringa]

Do they still have an Upper Fourth at CH? I get the impression that the Lower Fourth has gone and everyone joins the Little Erasmus so what comes after the LE? Is there still a fast stream?

[jtaylor]

When I was there is was:-
2nd Form (1st year at the school, age 10/11
3rd Form
Little Erasmus
Upper Fourth
Great Erasmus (GCSE year)
Deputy Grecians
Grecians.

[Vonny]

When I was there is was:-
2nd Form (1st year at the school, age 10/11
3rd Form
Little Erasmus
Upper Fourth
Great Erasmus (GCSE year)
Deputy Grecians
Grecians.

That's what I remember.

[Mr Tall]

Back in my day in the 1960s when streaming was in operation it went:

Second form
Third form
Little Erasmus
Great Erasmus ( O levels)
Deputy Grecians
Grecians ( A levels )
Grecians ( 2nd parting ) ( Oxbridge and S levels )

for the intelligent. That is how I ended up taking A levels at 16 years of age and therefore being ineligible to go to University for another year.

For the intellectually challenged, the inhabitants of the quaintly named 'Manual Training School', after Third form they went into the Lower Forth then the Upper Forth when they sat 'O' levels or CSEs, then they could go into the Deps or leave to do whatever at 16.

This rather severe streaming ended at some time as parents objected, so I understand. Certainly, I didn't benefit by taking A levels so early.

[Rex]

Returning to Dave's original query, the only light I can shed is that Boyer's title was Upper Grammar Master.

Strictly speaking no one had the title of Head Master before the Rev George Charles Bell (CH 1842-51, Headmaster 1868-76), I believe.

[sejintenej]

Back in my day in the 1960s when streaming was in operation it went:

Second form
Third form
Little Erasmus
Great Erasmus ( O levels)
Deputy Grecians
Grecians ( A levels )
Grecians ( 2nd parting ) ( Oxbridge and S levels )

for the intelligent. That is how I ended up taking A levels at 16 years of age and therefore being ineligible to go to University for another year.

For the intellectually challenged, the inhabitants of the quaintly named 'Manual Training School', after Third form they went into the Lower Forth then the Upper Forth when they sat 'O' levels or CSEs, then they could go into the Deps or leave to do whatever at 16.

In the late 50's up to 1961 (when I left) there was a Fifth Form after Great Erasmus for those not doing A levels (and therefore not going into Deps) so that peeps could do even more O levels - from memory I ended up with 13 by that route. ***
Exceptionally I went from Fifth Form into Deps (I was of a similar age to the rest by then) and on to take A levels in the Grecians - everyone else in my year did "the decent thing" and left.


*** it must be admitted that many of them are duplications - Elementary then General then Advanced Maths as an example!

[stage crew]

Back in my day in the 1960s when streaming was in operation it went:

Second form
Third form
Little Erasmus
Great Erasmus ( O levels)
Deputy Grecians
Grecians ( A levels )
Grecians ( 2nd parting ) ( Oxbridge and S levels )

for the intelligent. That is how I ended up taking A levels at 16 years of age and therefore being ineligible to go to University for another year.

For the intellectually challenged, the inhabitants of the quaintly named 'Manual Training School', after Third form they went into the Lower Forth then the Upper Forth when they sat 'O' levels or CSEs, then they could go into the Deps or leave to do whatever at 16.

When I was at CH in the 2nd & 3rd forms the sequence for the majority (i.e. except the very top stream of one class) was:
2nd form
3rd form
Lower Fourth / Little Erasmus
Upper Fourth
Great Erasmus (O Level year)
Deps
Grecian.

The route for the most able entering the Little Erasmus meant they skipped the Upper Fourth year and went straight to Great Erasmus.

However, in 1977, when it was my turn, the accelerated stream had been abandoned, so everyone did three years after 3rd form to O Levels, and the name Lower Fourth disappeared as everyone went into Little Erasmus.

Aah, how the minutiae comes flooding back!

[Eruresto]

JDS did a very nice chart about this in The Blue once...Mich. term, either '02 or '03. I'll dig it out when I get home.

[postwarblue]

1. Is it possible that Seaman was expected to leave from the UF (sickness?) and a bible inscribed to him but was then reprieved and went on to become a Grecian?

2. 1946-54 forms were

Prep (had three levels in it)

3rd Form (skipped by the clever)
LF
LE
UF (start wearing Broadie)
GE (usual School Cert/GCE (from 1953) year)
Vth introduced ca.1951-2
Deps (inc probationary deps)
3rd (including probationary), 2nd & 1st Parting Grecians.
2nd Parting took A Levels & redbrick entries left at this point
1st Parting took Oxbridge's own exams in November & than stayed on for the rest of the year supplying house captains, school mons etc. subject to maybe being called up for National Service (that generation's version of Gap Year but for some rather more serious) although others deferred until after university.

[michael scuffil]

1946-54 forms were


3rd Form (skipped by the clever)
2nd Parting took A Levels & redbrick entries left at this point
1st Parting took Oxbridge's own exams in November & than stayed on for the rest of the year supplying house captains, school mons etc. subject to maybe being called up for National Service (that generation's version of Gap Year but for some rather more serious) although others deferred until after university.

This arrangement continued until 1960/61. By 1955, the 3rd Form was skipped by almost everyone (except those sent up from the Prep at Xmas). It was not until the mid-50s that there were many "redbrick entries": see my forthcoming contribution regarding CMESeaman. I think the last year for National Service was for those born in 1941. Certainly not me (1944).

[sejintenej]

1946-54 forms were


3rd Form (skipped by the clever)
2nd Parting took A Levels & redbrick entries left at this point
1st Parting took Oxbridge's own exams in November & than stayed on for the rest of the year supplying house captains, school mons etc. subject to maybe being called up for National Service (that generation's version of Gap Year but for some rather more serious) although others deferred until after university.

This arrangement continued until 1960/61. By 1955, the 3rd Form was skipped by almost everyone (except those sent up from the Prep at Xmas). It was not until the mid-50s that there were many "redbrick entries": see my forthcoming contribution regarding CMESeaman. I think the last year for National Service was for those born in 1941. Certainly not me (1944).

In the late 50's / early 60's I certainly do not recall the reference to "partings" though I must have been in Second Partings.

I don't recal any pupils coming up from the Prep at any time other than in September. The 3rd form was the pits when I went up (1954) - I missed it, but didn't follow whether it continued to exist.

National Service - I think the cut off must have been early 1943 birth.