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Re: All this is incredibly sad
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:17 pm
by TMF
That the children of staff did not have the same experience as other children is a fact and not speculation. (The speculation was on the chances of being sexually abused being zero for such children, I know of no public information to contradict that speculation. But it may have happened).
Abetting abuse, through studiously turning away from the problem, historically and in the present, is catastrophically damaging.
Re: All this is incredibly sad
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:33 pm
by marty
graham wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:02 pm
marty wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:36 pm
rockfreak wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:11 pm
Why did Karim apparently not get up to his antics at Eton or the Queens Club? Well Eton is full of self-confident posh youngsters with equally self-confident, sharp-elbowed, well-heeled, well-connected parents whom he hesitated from crossing. And Queens Club likewise in addition to it not being a boarding school.
Nothing to do with being "posh". All of Karim's victims were female and Eton is boys only.
But the Queen's club isn't - I think Rockfreak is making a good point about the level of vulnerability of the student body at CH compared with other schools or institutions. It makes you wonder about Dobbie at Shrewsbury, which I understand to be an expensive private school. Would he have been as successful in his predations at a place like that? I suspect we will find out in the near future ...
Queen's Club is not a school. You have to be over 18 to be a member. So in either case neither are particularly comparable: Karim's victims were female minors - not a victim group to be found at either Eton or Queen's Club.
Re: All this is incredibly sad
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:54 pm
by graham
marty wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:33 pm
graham wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:02 pm
marty wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:36 pm
Nothing to do with being "posh". All of Karim's victims were female and Eton is boys only.
But the Queen's club isn't - I think Rockfreak is making a good point about the level of vulnerability of the student body at CH compared with other schools or institutions. It makes you wonder about Dobbie at Shrewsbury, which I understand to be an expensive private school. Would he have been as successful in his predations at a place like that? I suspect we will find out in the near future ...
Queen's Club is not a school. You have to be over 18 to be a member. So in either case neither are particularly comparable: Karim's victims were female minors - not a victim group to be found at either Eton or Queen's Club.
Argh, you're correct of course. I misremembered one of the news reports, in which the director said he would entrust his daughters to Karim, as saying that he had actually been teaching kids there.
But I think Rockfreak's point is still a good one, albeit not specific to Karim's case.
Re: All this is incredibly sad
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:40 pm
by Andyjf
scrub wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:15 pm
I understand what you mean about the memories but for me the happy memories I have are still there, although the bad memories definitely have a darker subtext to them now. There is definitely a part of me that feels slightly uneasy about having some fond recollections of my time given what I know now about what some kids went through. Maybe uneasy is not the right word, but unless there's one single word for "a feeling of anger/sadness/disappointment" it'll have to do.
Like a number of people, it's only recently that I've put a great deal of time and effort into thinking about/examining my time at CH. I've always said that for me it was a mixed bag, not the most wonderful time of my life but also not a living nightmare. I have some good memories and I have some quite bad ones too. It took me a little while to adjust to life outside of school but it hasn't (as far as I can tell) left any lingering psychic scars that have hampered me on my way through life. While I was never going to leave a bequest I've never seriously called for the dissolution of the place either.
Or to put all that in it a simpler way "sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe sh*t", which is how most kids feel about school regardless of where they go.
The good memories I have are almost entirely of the friends I made and usually of us doing stupid (often drunken) things. Even before I knew anything about the abuse cases I didn't feel so kindly towards the institution itself or a number of the people who were in charge.
None of that has changed much.
That describes how I feel too.
One of the things I struggled with was never being able to get away from the school. I think that with social media how it is now, that's an experience that many pupils have wherever they go to school.
I pondered TMFs comment about non-foundationers living in a gilded cage. On the face of it it makes sense but in lots of ways I think it is actually the opposite; at least I got to be away from the school in the holidays.
Re: All this is incredibly sad
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:01 pm
by graham
Andyjf wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:40 pm
I pondered TMFs comment about non-foundationers living in a gilded cage. On the face of it it makes sense but in lots of ways I think it is actually the opposite; at least I got to be away from the school in the holidays.
I see what you're saying but I think I'm more inclined to agree with TMF. The non-foundationers I knew never had to deal with the level of verbal or non-verbal bullying that others had to deal with. I don't doubt that some others were bullied. I do doubt they ever had to think seriously about such trivial things as which deodorant or tuck they'd bring back to school because if they got a nice brand it was likely to get pinched. And I'm fairly sure none of them lay in bed at night, scared to fall asleep in case they got roughed up by some more senior kid who took a disliking to them.
Re: All this is incredibly sad
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:13 pm
by Andyjf
graham wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:01 pm
And I'm fairly sure none of them lay in bed at night, scared to fall asleep in case they got roughed up by some more senior kid who took a disliking to them.
That was genuinely terrifying and happened in both my junior and senior houses. I remember one occasion when for no apparent reason the whole dorm turned on me; nothing physical but very hurtful. Other times it was very physical. Still think about it today so obviously traumatic.
Re: All this is incredibly sad
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:31 pm
by Golfer
CodFlabAndMuck wrote: ↑Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:51 pm
Do you have any recollection of why he left?
None at all.
Am I right to think that he had already given up the house when he left?
Did he leave mid-year or at the end of the school year?
Re: All this is incredibly sad
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:41 pm
by Great Plum
Golfer wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:31 pm
CodFlabAndMuck wrote: ↑Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:51 pm
Do you have any recollection of why he left?
None at all.
Am I right to think that he had already given up the house when he left?
Did he leave mid-year or at the end of the school year?
Certainly Dr Stuart was housemaster of Maine A throughout my time at CH...
Re: All this is incredibly sad
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:30 pm
by CodFlabAndMuck
Andyjf wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:13 pm
graham wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:01 pm
And I'm fairly sure none of them lay in bed at night, scared to fall asleep in case they got roughed up by some more senior kid who took a disliking to them.
That was genuinely terrifying and happened in both my junior and senior houses. I remember one occasion when for no apparent reason the whole dorm turned on me; nothing physical but very hurtful. Other times it was very physical. Still think about it today so obviously traumatic.
Add to that all the thieving or using of another's sports kit without asking, which was just considered normal.
Within a day of being back from hols, you would find all your kit had been taken and if you were lucky you might eventually find one rugby boot discarded in the changing rooms with your muddied towel lying somewhere.
Buckle off your belt taken
And the state the kitchen was left in for the poor cleaners to sort out.
The place has a great ethos, but there was a distinct lack of moral direction and sense of discipline from some housemasters, which resulted in nastiness pervading and made life incredibly frustrating.
Re: All this is incredibly sad
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:35 pm
by sejintenej
graham wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:01 pm
Andyjf wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:40 pm
I pondered TMFs comment about non-foundationers living in a gilded cage. On the face of it it makes sense but in lots of ways I think it is actually the opposite; at least I got to be away from the school in the holidays.
I see what you're saying but I think I'm more inclined to agree with TMF. The non-foundationers I knew never had to deal with the level of verbal or non-verbal bullying that others had to deal with. I don't doubt that some others were bullied. I do doubt they ever had to think seriously about such trivial things as which deodorant or tuck they'd bring back to school because if they got a nice brand it was likely to get pinched. And I'm fairly sure none of them lay in bed at night, scared to fall asleep in case they got roughed up by some more senior kid who took a disliking to them.
I have to wonder what on earth you are writing about. Although a few had a plate on their coats most foundation pupils did not have any distinguishing marks. We were all in the same boat to sink or swim, to take the blows as they came equally spaced amongst all the younger boys without exception. It was only about 10 years ago that I discovered that another boy in Col A whom I knew was a foundationer.
Re: All this is incredibly sad
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:28 pm
by harryh
I believe some people on here are referring solely to the children of staff when they use the term Non-Foundationer.
To one poster in particular they appear to have been another focus for resentment and/or envy.
I realise there is no pleasing some folk, but unless you can step into someone else's shoes you should realise that fact means different things to different people.
Re: All this is incredibly sad
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:37 am
by TMF
...fact means different things to different people
...so 'facts' are person specific now...(!)
Actually facts are facts. Uncomfortable perhaps - but they are facts.
Re: All this is incredibly sad
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:17 am
by DazedandConfused
I don’t think it’s a case of resentment or envy, just recognition that they had a different experience and were shielded from what happened in the boarding houses overnight simply because they weren’t there.
Re: All this is incredibly sad
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:43 am
by Scazza
DazedandConfused wrote: ↑Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:17 am
I don’t think it’s a case of resentment or envy, just recognition that they had a different experience and were shielded from what happened in the boarding houses overnight simply because they weren’t there.
And they had their parents on hand for a chat and cuddle if needed.... assuming the staff werent as emotionally distant to their own kids as they were to the rest of us.....
(On that note, I really dislike the term houseparent. Housemaster's ran the houses. There wasn't much parenting. I didnt even know Paul Maddrens wifes name and Marlene Fleming was invisible to any of the kids in Peele B despite the impression she gave in the glowing piece she wrote about herself.)
Re: All this is incredibly sad
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:07 am
by DazedandConfused
And they had their parents on hand for a chat and cuddle if needed.... assuming the staff werent as emotionally distant to their own kids as they were to the rest of us.....
Good point. I doubt they ever went to bed hungry either , which is one of my enduring memories of school.
There was a non-foundationer on my year in my house and she definitely had a very different view of school life to the rest of us. As a second former she would sleep in until 8am and then arrive in house just in time to depart for lessons, whereas the rest of us were woken by the bell at 7am and had rushed around doing jobs for the older girls, trades at breakfast etc.