All this is incredibly sad

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DazedandConfused
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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by DazedandConfused » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:36 pm

I wonder how many OB’s have educated their own children privately and how much their CH experience influenced that decision? I loved CH, I loved boarding and thrived at school. Until a few years ago I would happily have allowed my son to go to CH had he wanted to go. Now- absolutely no way.

I was the same era as you Phil, the same year actually. Jerry Martin was my tutor, Karim a house tutor and we were all extremely wary of him. Despite this, I’d never said a bad word about the school until recent months, now my memories of CH seem a farce.

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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by sejintenej » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:50 pm

RusticationPhil wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:22 pm


Well in my view a good education is a universal human right, expensive holidays and flash cars are not.
Nor televisions, mobile phones, flash trainers, three pairs of shoes, dishwashers, central heating ..........
Your education should not depend on who your parents happen to be or how much money they have. In my opinion politicians would put more money into state schools if they didnt have the option of sending their kids to a private schools. Certainly, I think CHs charitable status is dubious. CH should have to pay tax.
Fine; YOU sent your fifty grand to the erk of the opposition and see how much gets down to the schools
Besides I am really not convinced that the "better" education provided by private boarding schools, outweights the potential risk of extreme bullying, and of course elevated risk of abuse.
They will get plenty of that in the workplace. As for better education I had to try to train kids from state schools with good pases at GCSE - effing awful the lot and had to end some probations early. I had a few graduates who were little better
The whole idea of sending an 11 year old kid to live somewhere else seems crazy to me. I think that if you have a smart 11 yr kid, they would probably be better off staying at home and going to a state school, where their parents can get on with their job-parenting.
Tell that to the French education authorities - in one speciality they have just two schools in metropolitan France. Even in more popular specialities 10 year olds have to board out. One OB taught in one such school (a school which I also happen to know) and he used the word either brothel or bordello
I am pretty sure that those philanthropists who paid for unrelated kids to go to CH in the early 90s may well be rethinking their decision now! If their cash is burning a hole in their pocket, there are no shortages of good causes out there.
Just be careful which charity you support - some are not as they seem (and I got that from someone in the same field)
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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by Scazza » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:58 pm

Golfer wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:42 pm
But I didn't know. So the majority of staff probably didn't know. How CH.
Flemming knew because complaints about Dobbie were made to him. He didn't take it seriously.

Poulton knew. He eventually, reluctantly got rid of his pet project Karim (but gave him a glowing reference anyway).

Cairncross knew. Head of safeguarding like.

Howard knew because he told pupils why McCall left in a hurry but won't confirm that, for reasons known only to him.

Kate Powell, the assistant chaplain knew but did nothing. May she not get to heaven.

People knew about Husbands flings with pupils. The music teacher leaving.

It is inconceivable to me that staff would leave suddenly and other staff would not be offered - or ask for - an explanation.

This is why pupils are angry. At best its embarrassingly inept. However the ongoing lack of comment or contrition by the school about the mistakes made makes it feel more like collusion, than ineptitude.

If you are already borderline depressed, wed better not bring up the bullying or other inter-pupil stuff you tentatively referred to. Surely that is a safeguarding failure too? Or is the school absolved of responsibility there too?
Last edited by Scazza on Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by DazedandConfused » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:17 pm

Shelia Banyard, the assistant chaplain
I don’t know that name, she must have been before my time. I’d assumed the assistant chaplain in question was Kate Powell who started in, I think, 1990 or 1991.

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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by Great Plum » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:21 pm

DazedandConfused wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:36 pm
I wonder how many OB’s have educated their own children privately and how much their CH experience influenced that decision? I loved CH, I loved boarding and thrived at school. Until a few years ago I would happily have allowed my son to go to CH had he wanted to go. Now- absolutely no way.

I was the same era as you Phil, the same year actually. Jerry Martin was my tutor, Karim a house tutor and we were all extremely wary of him. Despite this, I’d never said a bad word about the school until recent months, now my memories of CH seem a farce.
A friend of my sister’s who was two years below me has a daughter on the UF who loves the school, an ex teacher has just sent her son to the school at LE and I do know a number of school friends who are educating their children privately.

Would I send my children to CH? Yes, if we as a family thought that it would benefit them, they wanted to go, and if we could afford it (we can’t!)

I think that we have to remember that boarding schools are a far different beast even from 20-25 years ago when I was there; there is far more interaction with parents, the pupils have far more homely spaces to live and sleep in - that’s not just at CH, that’s pretty much across the boarding school sector.
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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by TMF » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:16 am

When I was a pupil, masters' children inhabited a gilded cage. They could go home when they wanted. They often did not stay in the dorms. Corporal punishment was likely reduced - because at some point parent and teacher might have to discuss the topic. They were not bullied - because the chances of being turned in were higher - from a bully's point of view. I would speculate that the chances of being sexually abused were zero - because teacher pedophiles are not stupid. Hence, master's children have view points which differ from the norm and are likely somewhat more optimistic about school life than others.

Nevertheless, master's children were and are aware of 'spurious circumstances':
http://www.chforum.info/php/viewtopic.p ... 44&#p57144
http://www.chforum.info/php/viewtopic.p ... 9&#p143079
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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by harryh » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:09 am

You may speculate, TMF, as is your right, but the "gilded cage" was not the case for all staff children I can assure you. Some of the most cruel verbal bullying was meted out to some children of staff.
You can do untold damage with some of your "speculation".
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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by Elvie » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:29 am

What damage can be done by this speculation?

It’s perfectly understandable that pupils with parents as teachers TYPICALLY had a level of protection from the worst of what occurred at CH. And I don’t think it’s unreasonable, if I were that teacher I couldn’t stand by and tolerate a child of mine being abused. And having them in the family home overnight would at least give them an escape.

That said, I liked all of the teachers kids I knew, and they all seemed to be well liked and well balanced. I remember the Vincent Smith boys talking about how they would rather stay in the dorms as they missed out on the late night shenanigans. But there would have been a number of kids in those dorms who would do anything to swap with them!

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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by Scazza » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:36 am

DazedandConfused wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:17 pm
....the assistant chaplain
I don’t know that name, she must have been before my time. I’d assumed the assistant chaplain in question was Kate Powell who started in, I think, 1990 or 1991.
Thanks, you're right, it was Powell, I've edited my post. Fairly sure if it had been the other person the result would have been the same.

http://www.chforum.info/php/viewtopic.p ... it=Banyard

PS: BTW, I forgot to add Baker to my list of staff who knew (about Webb in his case). Ooops, and Sillett too. Oh, plus Lorimer, Gregory. Newcombe too, since he changed Webbs duties after the dining hall chanting.

Maybe it would be easier to list the staff that didn't know....
Last edited by Scazza on Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by Scazza » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:42 am

harryh wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:09 am
You may speculate, TMF, as is your right, but the "gilded cage" was not the case for all staff children I can assure you. Some of the most cruel verbal bullying was meted out to some children of staff.
You can do untold damage with some of your "speculation".
Most cruel verbal bullying :o That was par for the course for most pupils!

More concerning for the majority of us is that we were sleeping in dorms, miles from our parents, apparently unprotected from being groped by staff. That is not something your lad would have experienced. Lucky him.

.... and the real damage being done is through the ongoing silence of the school and its servants.

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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by scrub » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:15 pm

DazedandConfused wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:36 pm
Despite this, I’d never said a bad word about the school until recent months, now my memories of CH seem a farce.
I understand what you mean about the memories but for me the happy memories I have are still there, although the bad memories definitely have a darker subtext to them now. There is definitely a part of me that feels slightly uneasy about having some fond recollections of my time given what I know now about what some kids went through. Maybe uneasy is not the right word, but unless there's one single word for "a feeling of anger/sadness/disappointment" it'll have to do.

Like a number of people, it's only recently that I've put a great deal of time and effort into thinking about/examining my time at CH. I've always said that for me it was a mixed bag, not the most wonderful time of my life but also not a living nightmare. I have some good memories and I have some quite bad ones too. It took me a little while to adjust to life outside of school but it hasn't (as far as I can tell) left any lingering psychic scars that have hampered me on my way through life. While I was never going to leave a bequest I've never seriously called for the dissolution of the place either.
Or to put all that in it a simpler way "sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe sh*t", which is how most kids feel about school regardless of where they go.

The good memories I have are almost entirely of the friends I made and usually of us doing stupid (often drunken) things. Even before I knew anything about the abuse cases I didn't feel so kindly towards the institution itself or a number of the people who were in charge.
None of that has changed much.
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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by rockfreak » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:11 pm

Regarding the above submission, I still find it astonishing that people are agonising over their time at CH by trying to balance the abuse with the good times they remember. They shouldn't have to experience the abuse, or the risk of it, full stop. Every time we come back to that same problem in my opinion. Closed institutions are a natural target for predators in a way that day schools are not. Indeed CH more so. Why did Karim apparently not get up to his antics at Eton or the Queens Club? Well Eton is full of self-confident posh youngsters with equally self-confident, sharp-elbowed, well-heeled, well-connected parents whom he hesitated from crossing. And Queens Club likewise in addition to it not being a boarding school.
Christ's Hospital is notable for a lot of youngsters with one parent, parents who live a long way away and don't visit often, or youngsters who, in the case of the girl raped by Husband, someone with problems.
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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by marty » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:36 pm

rockfreak wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:11 pm
Why did Karim apparently not get up to his antics at Eton or the Queens Club? Well Eton is full of self-confident posh youngsters with equally self-confident, sharp-elbowed, well-heeled, well-connected parents whom he hesitated from crossing. And Queens Club likewise in addition to it not being a boarding school.
Nothing to do with being "posh". All of Karim's victims were female and Eton is boys only.
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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by scrub » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:54 pm

rockfreak wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:11 pm
Regarding the above submission, I still find it astonishing that people are agonising over their time at CH by trying to balance the abuse with the good times they remember.
Not trying to balance anything mate, nor have I ever said in any post that the abuses, and the subsequent silent treatment of them by the school at the time, was, is, or ever will be in any way acceptable.
I have explicitly stated this in the past.
Having some happy memories from my time there with doesn't mean I feel anything other than revulsion and anger at the abuses, the abusers, and their protectors (both active and passive).
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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by graham » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:02 pm

marty wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:36 pm
rockfreak wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:11 pm
Why did Karim apparently not get up to his antics at Eton or the Queens Club? Well Eton is full of self-confident posh youngsters with equally self-confident, sharp-elbowed, well-heeled, well-connected parents whom he hesitated from crossing. And Queens Club likewise in addition to it not being a boarding school.
Nothing to do with being "posh". All of Karim's victims were female and Eton is boys only.
But the Queen's club isn't - I think Rockfreak is making a good point about the level of vulnerability of the student body at CH compared with other schools or institutions. It makes you wonder about Dobbie at Shrewsbury, which I understand to be an expensive private school. Would he have been as successful in his predations at a place like that? I suspect we will find out in the near future ...
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