All this is incredibly sad

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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by DazedandConfused » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:12 pm

michael scuffil wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:25 am
[
(2) the notion that an adolescent escapade (however unpleasant) should harm someone's career.

I’m amazed you can still think this after reading on these very boards the devastating and often permanent impact that sexual assault can have upon people. His victim has to live with the impact of what he did, why on earth shouldn’t he?

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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by sejintenej » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:02 pm

michael scuffil wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:25 am

Don't get me wrong. I think she's probably telling the truth. But two things worry me: (1) the timing; and (2) the notion that an adolescent escapade (however unpleasant) should harm someone's career.
Her speech struck me as too pat; even in such a situation can you remember in such vivid detail the house that you went to and who was there and the events leading up to your visit 30 years ago? She said that she had been sunbathing and diving at the country club; I don't know if she wa a competitive diver at that time but a normal person would be more likely to say that they were "in the pool" without giving that very specific action.

She said that once she was in the room someone locked the door so she couldn't get out / they couldn't be disturbed but when they fell off the bed she could get up and walk out the door and to the bathroom opposite and lock the door. There were four males in the room, apparently at least two with ill intent but they simply let her get up, unlock the door and go into another room without their trying to hold her back?
She heard them go down the stairs and later went down those same stairs herself - how did she know that they were not in the room at the bottom of the stairs ready to catch her?

I simply don't know if she was attacked or not but the story was too detailed and too pat, with interspersions clearly (IMHO) created for an audience.

As for your worries, a) I can understand her remaining silent if her attacker remained someone totally innocuous but his proposed advancement tipped a balance. There was talk that other victims were not allowed to tell their stories by the chairman who is potus' man. b) I think that "escapade" is too mild an expresion for such an attack and it worries me that a person, even technically an older youth, did not have the knowledge, sense and common decency to avoid being involved. One's character is formed in their middle teens and one's actions at that time probably indicate how the person will turn out.

Although it has gone to the FBI that body has been given a near impossible deadline and in any case potus has a record of getting rid of those who do not follow his personal interests. In such a short time I suspect that all they can do is say "not proven".
Mind you, even if he's appointed, he's lost his authority.
Would you want to be tried by him? Is he open to blackmail in an important judicial role? I agree with you. I simply regret that the hearing should have been split solely on party lines and not on members's true opinions and worse that outsiders should have been given the opportunity to barrage a committee member in such an important matter in such a locale - mob justice at its most obvious.
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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by graham » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:58 pm

sejintenej wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:02 pm

Her speech struck me as too pat; even in such a situation can you remember in such vivid detail the house that you went to and who was there and the events leading up to your visit 30 years ago? She said that she had been sunbathing and diving at the country club; I don't know if she wa a competitive diver at that time but a normal person would be more likely to say that they were "in the pool" without giving that very specific action.

She said that once she was in the room someone locked the door so she couldn't get out / they couldn't be disturbed but when they fell off the bed she could get up and walk out the door and to the bathroom opposite and lock the door. There were four males in the room, apparently at least two with ill intent but they simply let her get up, unlock the door and go into another room without their trying to hold her back?
She heard them go down the stairs and later went down those same stairs herself - how did she know that they were not in the room at the bottom of the stairs ready to catch her?

I simply don't know if she was attacked or not but the story was too detailed and too pat, with interspersions clearly (IMHO) created for an audience.
Some of the less partisan television networks over here, PBS in particular, have done extensive reporting on the research into the memory of trauma victims. These studies show that some components of traumatic events are seared into the memory while others are more fuzzy or can be missing entirely. Dr. Ford's memories are remarkably consistent with this.

There are evolutionary explanations for these phenomena - I read a nice example that pointed out if attacked by lion, you care less about the events preceding the event and more about the specifics of how and where the event occurred and how you got away - that's what will save you next time. The fact that she remembers some components in vivid detail make complete sense.

Some of the events you describe as being too vivid were rather generic. Most outdoor pools in the US have diving boards and so to characterize her day as spent diving seems rather normal.

She stated that she was pushed into the room by two men - I don't believe she said they locked the door - and that she was able to escape when the other individual jumped on top of Kavanaugh, who was on top of her, causing them all to tumble to the floor. Her escape at that point is logical.

She stated that she ran down the stairs and straight out of the house after hearing them go down the stairs and talking with others. Again, I don't see how it is so difficult to believe? And again, the fact that she remembers the rough floor plan of the house so well makes sense in the context of those retained escape plan memories.

David, I wonder if you could to let us know on what you base your opinion that her story was created for an audience? Have you conducted research into memory retention in trauma victims? Or are you an expert in the psychology of victims of sexual assault? I recognize my tone here is rather strong but it is meant to be and I genuinely want to know on what basis you discount her so readily. To paraphrase D&C's response to a different point, I'm surprised that any Old Blue, given abuse our fellow pupils suffered in silence, can question the motives and recollections of some one who comes forward in a different setting. Perhaps you have expertise that allow you to critically dissect her testimony, but if not it sounds a bit like you're simply writing a woman off for no reason.

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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by Golfer » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:02 pm

I agree. It has the appearance of a sexist response.

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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by michael scuffil » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:49 am

DazedandConfused wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:12 pm
michael scuffil wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:25 am
[
(2) the notion that an adolescent escapade (however unpleasant) should harm someone's career.

I’m amazed you can still think this after reading on these very boards the devastating and often permanent impact that sexual assault can have upon people. His victim has to live with the impact of what he did, why on earth shouldn’t he?
I know of a few cases of sexual assault by CH boys on other CH boys. Some came to the attention of the authorities, and action was taken. Some were not reported. But are you seriously saying that if an OB was to be made a judge in his 50s, he should be disqualified if another OB says 'He tried to assault me sexually when he was a schoolboy.'

The actor who played Dirty Den on Eastenders was a convicted murderer. Doubtless the victim would have liked his life back. But would that be a reason for not giving the actor a job, having served his sentence? Or is murder less heinous?
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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by DazedandConfused » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:28 pm

By that logic, if Karim had been under the age of 18 when he committed his CH offences then the victims would be unreasonable to make a complaint?

A known offender who has served their sentence going on to be a soap actor is quite different to someone who is holding themselves as a person of impeccable character, appropriate to holding such significant office.

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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by sejintenej » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:17 pm

graham wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:58 pm
sejintenej wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:02 pm

Her speech struck me as too pat; even in such a situation can you remember in such vivid detail the house that you went to and who was there and the events leading up to your visit 30 years ago? She said that she had been sunbathing and diving at the country club; I don't know if she wa a competitive diver at that time but a normal person would be more likely to say that they were "in the pool" without giving that very specific action.

She said that once she was in the room someone locked the door so she couldn't get out / they couldn't be disturbed but when they fell off the bed she could get up and walk out the door and to the bathroom opposite and lock the door. There were four males in the room, apparently at least two with ill intent but they simply let her get up, unlock the door and go into another room without their trying to hold her back?
She heard them go down the stairs and later went down those same stairs herself - how did she know that they were not in the room at the bottom of the stairs ready to catch her?

I simply don't know if she was attacked or not but the story was too detailed and too pat, with interspersions clearly (IMHO) created for an audience.
Some of the less partisan television networks over here, PBS in particular, have done extensive reporting on the research into the memory of trauma victims. These studies show that some components of traumatic events are seared into the memory while others are more fuzzy or can be missing entirely. Dr. Ford's memories are remarkably consistent with this.

There are evolutionary explanations for these phenomena - I read a nice example that pointed out if attacked by lion, you care less about the events preceding the event and more about the specifics of how and where the event occurred and how you got away - that's what will save you next time. The fact that she remembers some components in vivid detail make complete sense.
Not having seen the PBS analyses I cannot comment but see the end below. However, would you remember the several dates involved or would you retain copies of everything at your fingertips so that you can virtually write them into the script.
Some of the events you describe as being too vivid were rather generic. Most outdoor pools in the US have diving boards and so to characterize her day as spent diving seems rather normal.
When you were at housie did you say you were going swimming or did you specify diving (given that the CH pool had diving boards). I did allow the get-out that she might have been a competitive diver). Of course that could have been an Americanism - I read so many daily and from different states which makes a difference.
She stated that she was pushed into the room by two men - I don't believe she said they locked the door - and that she was able to escape when the other individual jumped on top of Kavanaugh, who was on top of her, causing them all to tumble to the floor. Her escape at that point is logical.
The speech was repeated ad nauseum; apart from the dor being locked I agree with you BUT there were four males in the room; the two actually named, JR something and one whose name she couldn't remember. I did not hear any subsequent reference to the latter two.
David, I wonder if you could to let us know on what you base your opinion that her story was created for an audience?
The tenor approached that of an experienced counsel for the prosecution - the intersperses etc details of which I no longer recall.
Have you conducted research into memory retention in trauma victims? Or are you an expert in the psychology of victims of sexual assault? I recognize my tone here is rather strong but it is meant to be and I genuinely want to know on what basis you discount her so readily.
First of all I stated (I hope clearly) that I do not know if she was telling the entire truth.
As for your two questions there is an old saying "bin there, dun that, got the tee shirt". Twice at CH (male-male)and a couple of times afterwards (attacks). Certainly I remember a fair amount of detail but nowhere near that level of completeness. I can't even remember the years let alone the months of any of them
it sounds a bit like you're simply writing a woman off for no reason.
I am certainly not writing her off - she had a good idea of what lay in store when she went public. However this a matter for a professional investigation and, if appropriate, a court of law - not a public circus
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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by graham » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:27 pm

sejintenej wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:17 pm
graham wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:58 pm
sejintenej wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:02 pm

Her speech struck me as too pat; even in such a situation can you remember in such vivid detail the house that you went to and who was there and the events leading up to your visit 30 years ago? She said that she had been sunbathing and diving at the country club; I don't know if she wa a competitive diver at that time but a normal person would be more likely to say that they were "in the pool" without giving that very specific action.

She said that once she was in the room someone locked the door so she couldn't get out / they couldn't be disturbed but when they fell off the bed she could get up and walk out the door and to the bathroom opposite and lock the door. There were four males in the room, apparently at least two with ill intent but they simply let her get up, unlock the door and go into another room without their trying to hold her back?
She heard them go down the stairs and later went down those same stairs herself - how did she know that they were not in the room at the bottom of the stairs ready to catch her?

I simply don't know if she was attacked or not but the story was too detailed and too pat, with interspersions clearly (IMHO) created for an audience.
Some of the less partisan television networks over here, PBS in particular, have done extensive reporting on the research into the memory of trauma victims. These studies show that some components of traumatic events are seared into the memory while others are more fuzzy or can be missing entirely. Dr. Ford's memories are remarkably consistent with this.

There are evolutionary explanations for these phenomena - I read a nice example that pointed out if attacked by lion, you care less about the events preceding the event and more about the specifics of how and where the event occurred and how you got away - that's what will save you next time. The fact that she remembers some components in vivid detail make complete sense.
Not having seen the PBS analyses I cannot comment but see the end below. However, would you remember the several dates involved or would you retain copies of everything at your fingertips so that you can virtually write them into the script.
Some of the events you describe as being too vivid were rather generic. Most outdoor pools in the US have diving boards and so to characterize her day as spent diving seems rather normal.
When you were at housie did you say you were going swimming or did you specify diving (given that the CH pool had diving boards). I did allow the get-out that she might have been a competitive diver). Of course that could have been an Americanism - I read so many daily and from different states which makes a difference.
She stated that she was pushed into the room by two men - I don't believe she said they locked the door - and that she was able to escape when the other individual jumped on top of Kavanaugh, who was on top of her, causing them all to tumble to the floor. Her escape at that point is logical.
The speech was repeated ad nauseum; apart from the dor being locked I agree with you BUT there were four males in the room; the two actually named, JR something and one whose name she couldn't remember. I did not hear any subsequent reference to the latter two.
David, I wonder if you could to let us know on what you base your opinion that her story was created for an audience?
The tenor approached that of an experienced counsel for the prosecution - the intersperses etc details of which I no longer recall.
Have you conducted research into memory retention in trauma victims? Or are you an expert in the psychology of victims of sexual assault? I recognize my tone here is rather strong but it is meant to be and I genuinely want to know on what basis you discount her so readily.
First of all I stated (I hope clearly) that I do not know if she was telling the entire truth.
As for your two questions there is an old saying "bin there, dun that, got the tee shirt". Twice at CH (male-male)and a couple of times afterwards (attacks). Certainly I remember a fair amount of detail but nowhere near that level of completeness. I can't even remember the years let alone the months of any of them
it sounds a bit like you're simply writing a woman off for no reason.
I am certainly not writing her off - she had a good idea of what lay in store when she went public. However this a matter for a professional investigation and, if appropriate, a court of law - not a public circus
Before saying anything else, I would like to say that I am sorry that you experienced such violence, on multiple occasions, while at CH. I understand the toll that this must have taken on you and I hope you have been able to find ways of coming to terms with it all.

At the risk of pushing on this too hard, here is the full text of Dr Ford's opening remarks to the Senate Judiciary Committee. https://www.npr.org/2018/09/26/65194111 ... te-hearing

I think this should clarify that she identified four boys she remembered being at the party but only two individuals in the room at the time of the attack. Contrary to my own recollections, she refers only to diving in the context of spending most summer days at the pool swimming and practicing diving. I think this seems fairly innocuous. She doesn't seem to remember specific dates but does remember the year. In her televised senate testimony, she admitted she had deduced this from the fact that she didnt drive there and so it must have been the summer she was 15.

I find this compelling because it fits very well with my own experience. When I reported some inappropriate contact from a CH teacher to Sussex Police, I went through the same process of deduction, trying to work out the year based on other events that happened around that time and the subsequent effects on my behavior. I don't recall events leading up the incident or shortly afterwards at all, but it was in a familiar place so why should I? But I remember the incident and the few minutes after very well. I see nothing in her statement that looks deliberately over-interpreted, at least relative to my own experiences of trying to recall and detail an event.


To your final point, I fully agree. This should have been handled via a professional investigation. But I think this is what she wanted - I'm not sure how clear this became in reporting in other countries, but she reported this allegation to her local representative prior to the Judge's nomination (i.e. when his name was simply being bandied around as a potential nominee) and wrote a letter to her State Senator once his nomination became official. The whole time, she requested to remain anonymous and asked for her representatives to seek an investigation. It was only when her name was about to be leaked because the press had found out about the letter that she came forward and asked to testify. I really don't think we can blame her for the situation she found herself in.

My concern in all of this remains that we're often too willing to write off a woman who comes forward with an allegation. Perhaps the reporting induces biases. Perhaps we are inherently biased against women. Perhaps it's all political. I don't know.

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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by graham » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:34 pm

michael scuffil wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:49 am
DazedandConfused wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:12 pm
michael scuffil wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:25 am
[
(2) the notion that an adolescent escapade (however unpleasant) should harm someone's career.

I’m amazed you can still think this after reading on these very boards the devastating and often permanent impact that sexual assault can have upon people. His victim has to live with the impact of what he did, why on earth shouldn’t he?
I know of a few cases of sexual assault by CH boys on other CH boys. Some came to the attention of the authorities, and action was taken. Some were not reported. But are you seriously saying that if an OB was to be made a judge in his 50s, he should be disqualified if another OB says 'He tried to assault me sexually when he was a schoolboy.'
If a report was made at the time, absolutely. If not, it should be investigated prior to appointment. Smoking in bushes, drinking etc are adolescent escapades that harm no one else, do not suggest a fundamental lack of respect for other people, and therefore ought not to be disqualifying. Raping or sexually assaulting a peer is not an adolescent escapade. It's an act of violence against another human being that ought to disqualify someone from a position in which they are supposed to enforce laws and influence the lives of others.

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Re: All this is incredibly sad

Post by michael scuffil » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:01 pm

DazedandConfused wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:28 pm
By that logic, if Karim had been under the age of 18 when he committed his CH offences then the victims would be unreasonable to make a complaint?

A known offender who has served their sentence going on to be a soap actor is quite different to someone who is holding themselves as a person of impeccable character, appropriate to holding such significant office.
If Karim had been under 18, he should have been punished according to law. But it should not have prevented him getting another job -- any job -- in his 50s.

Of course a Supreme Court justice is a different matter. And of course if it's proved that the event took place, and that he must have remembered it, that would certainly disqualify him -- namely because it would unmask him as a liar NOW.
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