Punishment

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

I take a certain Masochistic interest, not pleasure, in reading about Hertford.

The Psychological Punishment, meted out to children, would, I believe, today merit a Consultation with a Psychiatrist !

I have spent some time in Mental Health ---- (As a Mental Health Act Manager !!) and the descriptions of punishments at Hertford, make my flesh crawl.

The description by Kim, of writing out Psalm 119, put me in mind of Mr (Kappa) Sills, and at the 60+ Re-union, some four of us --- un-known to each other, were able to sing (From "Trial by Jury" produced at Christmas 1943 ish by the Grecians and Deps)

Never mind the Why and Wherefore
I am Kappa Sills and therefore-
You will learn a Psalm by Saturday
And say it after Tea
For your Physics Prep
On wednesday night
Was N----V----G !

I am still of the opinion that Corporal Punishment was infinitely preferable to those awful things at Hertford ------
I'm SO glad I was born a Boy !!!

[Fjgrogan]

The merit of corporal punishment over the psychological kind is that it seems to do the trick at the time without leaving any lasting damage. Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating that children should be regularly beaten, but I do think that when all else fails a short sharp slap has a certain shock value. Maria and I were recently discussing this - she favours not smacking children and has a difficult time handling a five-year-old who just doesn't seem to respond to most punishments. I told her that she was just the same at that age and I just gave in and smacked her - it worked every time and I don't think it left any dreadful after effects. I was interested to hear that she doesn't remember that I smacked her - which seemed to prove the point! - but she does remember the time that her father hit her with a hairbrush (which I knew nothing about!). Now I am wondering what she had done that made him react that way, because normally she could twist him round her little finger - if I said 'No' she would invariably go to Daddy who would say 'Yes'! Nothing much has changed now that she is over 40!!!!

I think the different reactions over time of the members of this forum prove the point that the 'psychological' type of punishment generally has done far more lasting damage to the Hertford girls than the beatings experienced by the Horsham boys.

[sejintenej]

The merit of corporal punishment over the psychological kind is that it seems to do the trick at the time without leaving any lasting damage. re Maria: - if I said 'No' she would invariably go to Daddy who would say 'Yes'! Nothing much has changed now that she is over 40!!!!

Rude reply awaited

I think the different reactions over time of the members of this forum prove the point that the 'psychological' type of punishment generally has done far more lasting damage to the Hertford girls than the beatings experienced by the Horsham boys.

Having had the ruler on my knuckles, the slipper and cane everywhere between the kidneys and knees and been made to compete with eyes full of sand I still have to agree with you wholeheartedly. The "ooman roits brigade" idiots are stupid and a threat to the nation.

[icomefromalanddownunder]

This is going to turn into a bit of a long winded drively post, as my feelings are mixed and confused.

I was raised in a no smacking household (pact between Mum and Dad based, I have always presumed, on their own negative childhood experiences), and clearly remember pushing and pushing and pushing (particularly Dad) to see how far I could go before they cracked. I can't remember ever being smacked, but I do remember Dad standing over me with a pan of baked beans which he threatened to pour over my head. Now, my Dad was a relatively sane individual, and I can't begin to remember what I did to precipitate his behaviour, but what I do remember is losing respect for him because he didn't carry out his threat. I also remember Mum picking me up by my ears when I pushed past her threshold. I must have been quite young, or surely the weight of my body would have caused my ears to rip from my head?

When my daughter was approaching 3 she went through a phase of disappearing while I was shopping (with her baby brother in tow, and in a new country). The first three times I cried and 'reasoned' (with a 3 year old??????????????) when I found her. The fourth time I slapped her legs, and she never did it again.

Mitchell was a biter, and when he broke skin on a neighbour's child's leg I explained (he was 2ish) that if he ever bit anyone ever again that I would bite him to show him how much it hurt. Fast forward two days and I sunk my teeth into the skin between his thumb and index finger. I will never forget the look of shock on his face (that I had carried out my threat, or that it hurt so much?), and after I had put him down I vomited. But .................. he never bit again.

OK, now this is where I get confused:
Mitchell was a compulsive talker. He was suspended from primary school for talking too much (don't think the school expected the reaction that they got from me over that one: I laughed at them for their incompetence and took him shopping). He was a challenge to live with, while being a loving, intelligent and highly amusing individual. One weekend the junior members of the Squadron were taken out on the big (keel) boats. I was along as a parent helper, but the adults were all assigned to different boats to their offspring. Mitch was about 7 and I found that some of the older boys had taken him out in a dinghy and left him tied, alone, to some mangroves. On the one hand I could appreciate why they did it, but it was so totally against everything that we were trying to teach the kids about safety and team work and comradeship that I asked the person (also a parent) who was 'in charge' for the weekend to speak to the boys, including Mitch, about what had happened, why it had happened, and how to ensure that they worked harmoniously in future. I have to say that I was far more restrained about the incident than if it had happened to someone else's child. His response was that he had been bullied all through school and during his time serving with the RAAF, that it had done him no harm, and that it was just what boys do. I never sailed with him again.

So, was what the boys did OK? I think not: although Mitch was wearing a life jacket he could have panicked and his life could have been in danger. What would I have done to encourage him to just SHUT UP? Asigned him to deck scrubbing/spud bashing duties? Would a lesson have been learnt? Would he have benefited from the experience?

Confused of Adelaide

[englishangel]

Confused of Amersham here.

I had a son like your Mitchell (and his mother, my son's not Mitchell's) and I am afraid he did get a whack once or twice, but always followed by a big cuddle and reassurance that I still loved him. Daughter was much the same and but I tended to take things out on things rather than her person. I once broke a walking stick she had somehow acquired,"You broke my stiiiick!". Thinks "It was that or your neck".

Younger son would be reduced to tears by a raised voice and still hates confrontation. He has always been very well-behaved, I looked forward with trepidation to adolescence, but he sailed through that too.

It has all come out in the wash now they are adults and three better balanced, friendly outgoing individuals you couldn't hope to meet.

[DavidRawlins]

My brother is two and a half years younger than me. When he was about 3 my mother was telling him off, not believing in smacking. To comfort him I said "don't worry Antony, she's only nagging." This was a mistake, as she introduced smacking forthwith.

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

Of course, at Horsham, we had other punishments, than Beatings --- most of both types were administered by Monitors, Beatings, usually witha knotted Girdle, although I remember one Psychopath, who delighted in choosing different instruments of Correction eg: lenghts of Creeper, from outside the windows of Barnes B !

I suppose the punishments of "Miles" and "Loops" to be done in a certain time, according to age, were excellent, in that they were forced Exercise.

Housemaster's Beatings were reserved for really bad behaviour, but I really do not remember any psychological punishments ----- could it be, that I was too Thick to understand ???

Do "Miles" and "Loops" (Only for the Eastern Avenue Houses) still exist ? I would be interested to know, what punishments are available (If any ! ) to Monitors and Houseparents nowadays ?

[sejintenej]

This is going to turn into a bit of a long winded drively post, as my feelings are mixed and confused.

OK, so it is a confusing subject. I post drivel occasionally

Now, my Dad was a relatively sane individual, and I can't begin to remember what I did to precipitate his behaviour, but what I do remember is losing respect for him because he didn't carry out his threat.

Haven't you answewred your own query?

When my daughter was approaching 3 she went through a phase of disappearing while I was shopping (with her baby brother in tow, and in a new country). The first three times I cried and 'reasoned' (with a 3 year old??????????????) when I found her. The fourth time I slapped her legs, and she never did it again.

Again, you have answered your own problem and I'll bet he has no problem with his legs. (IF you had broken/damaged them then that is a a different matter).

Mitchell was a biter, and when he broke skin on a neighbour's child's leg I explained (he was 2ish) that if he ever bit anyone ever again that I would bite him to show him how much it hurt. Fast forward two days and I sunk my teeth into the skin between his thumb and index finger. I will never forget the look of shock on his face (that I had carried out my threat, or that it hurt so much?), and after I had put him down I vomited. But .................. he never bit again.

The punishment fits the crime and worked - and is he left with a lifetime visible cicatrice (scar)? Of course not

OK, now this is where I get confused:
Mitchell was a compulsive talker. He was suspended from primary school for talking too much (don't think the school expected the reaction that they got from me over that one: I laughed at them for their incompetence and took him shopping). He was a challenge to live with, while being a loving, intelligent and highly amusing individual. One weekend the junior members of the Squadron were taken out on the big (keel) boats. I was along as a parent helper, but the adults were all assigned to different boats to their offspring. Mitch was about 7 and I found that some of the older boys had taken him out in a dinghy and left him tied, alone, to some mangroves. On the one hand I could appreciate why they did it, but it was so totally against everything that we were trying to teach the kids about safety and team work and comradeship that I asked the person (also a parent) who was 'in charge' for the weekend to speak to the boys, including Mitch, about what had happened, why it had happened, and how to ensure that they worked harmoniously in future. I have to say that I was far more restrained about the incident than if it had happened to someone else's child. His response was that he had been bullied all through school and during his time serving with the RAAF, that it had done him no harm, and that it was just what boys do. I never sailed with him again.

So, was what the boys did OK? I think not: although Mitch was wearing a life jacket he could have panicked and his life could have been in danger. What would I have done to encourage him to just SHUT UP? Asigned him to deck scrubbing/spud bashing duties? Would a lesson have been learnt? Would he have benefited from the experience?

Here we have the conundrum. You slapped a child and bit another; some might call that bullying but you disagree with the effect of bullying by someone else. Mitchell was tied up in the mangrove swamps but you do not say if the person in charge had someone in hiding ensuring Mitchell's safety. You don't mention the state of the tides (rising or falling), whether jellyfish were a danger at that time / place - there are umpteen factors related to safety which I (for one) don't know. Mitchell got a fright. Mitchell (presumably) knew the reason why he was tied up. For me, assuming the person in charge ensured safety, it is a borderline case - fine if it worked and there are no lifelong terrors, but otherwise a little more caution might have been called for.
The person in charge, when confronted like this, is always going to give a rosy reply; you will never know if he actually regretted his actions and resolved that there would be no repeats.

IMHO there can never be a set of answers to cover every situation. I can equally appreciate that antipodean views differ from English ones - a close friend is a judge not many leagues from you, is "into" child protection and our views differ!

[icomefromalanddownunder]

IMHO there can never be a set of answers to cover every situation. I can equally appreciate that antipodean views differ from English ones - a close friend is a judge not many leagues from you, is "into" child protection and our views differ!

Maybe it's all about intent? At the primary school before the primary school that suspended Mitch for talking too much, he copped the ruler from the Principal. I was called to the Principal's office and the poor guy was almost beside himself over what he had done, and for letting Mitch push one too many of his buttons. I sympathised, and actually thanked him, as Mitch's behaviour had been steadily deteriorating over the previous few days, and I was dreading what the weekend might throw at me. I was pretty sure that his actions would guarantee me a harmonious weekend (they did).

If, however, I had been confronted by a Principal who had a sadistic gleam in his eye and was intent on gloryfying his actions and supporting corporal punishment I believe that I would have reacted very differently.

[Fjgrogan]

Looking back to my own childhood, I cannot remember ever being smacked - at least not the actual smacking itself, but I am sure that it happened. I do remember one incident though which seems to underline that it was the psychological rather than the physical aspect of the punishment that made an impression. I was something of a tomboy - lived in jeans and a red and white checked shirt - my father made me a beautiful bow and arrows; for some reason he later hit me with one of my own arrows; I have no idea what I did to deserve it, but what hurt most was the fact that he used my own arrow to do it! The only other punishment which sticks in my mind was an occasion when I was refusing to eat my greens(odd because I love greens now!) and I was told that I couldn't leave the table until I did. I insisted that I felt sick and was promptly dosed with Syrup of Figs, which I spat all over the greens, but was still made to eat them. Many years later I realised that my mother never ate greens, and I had never noticed throughout my childhood!

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

Sorry for a "Personal" contribution but -----
My Father (A Policeman) only struck me once.
I was seven years old, and for some reason, which I forget, my Mother gave me a hard slap across the face.
This being Stockwell, in the Thirties, I replied with a sharp jab to her stomach.
Mother took to her bed, "Injured" (By a 7 year old !) and when my Father came home, he instructed me to go upstairs and remove my trousers.
He then struck me, with his bare hand, on my Bottom. Once only.
My Mother lived to 95, and when we discussed this, in later years she said "I wanted to get it stopped, before it became serious "

We agreed !

[John Knight]

I suppose the punishments of "Miles" and "Loops" to be done in a certain time, according to age, were excellent, in that they were forced Exercise.
Do "Miles" and "Loops" (Only for the Eastern Avenue Houses) still exist ? I would be interested to know, what punishments are available (If any ! ) to Monitors and Houseparents nowadays ?

Yes Neill, I was also wondering if 'miles' and 'loops' still exist ....
I did a few of those in my time and 'double miles' too.

John.

[J.R.]

I'm 'reliably 'told that miles and loops, (p/o's), no longer exist.

Probably something to do with 'elf and insanity'.

Oh well..........................

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

If still in existence --- it would have raised "Gender Questions" ----- now I must be careful here ------
Would Females be given different times to qualify, or would "Equality" exist ?

At the age of 11, I was infuriated by my Cousin, Pauline, who, at 11 months older than I, could run faster than I could !

She, the age of 83, she still reminds me of it !!!

[englishangel]

And is she still able to run faster than you Neill?