Class Differences!

[jhopgood]

You are what you are, although what your parents were is something else.
I would agree that CH probably had something to do with slotting in where ever, as I like to think I do the same.
I'm not quite sure why this should be as reading between the lines of those who write on this forum, we all seem to have similar backgrounds.
My father, who left school at 14 to look after his twin sisters when their mother died, met my mother, who was an SRN in a hospital in Reading, and they married just after the war. He rose to the giddy heights of Det. Sgt second class, as he couldn't get through the written exams, and my mother ended up working as the nurse in the local surgery. Married life started in digs, graduated to 2 rooms on Woolwich Road close to the Valley, before they got a 3 bedroom terrace house on a Council estate in SE9, when my sister arrived.
They got a bigger council house on te same estate when the fifth child arrived.
I always thought he was working class on his way up, and my mother was middle class. Apart from my mother's father, who was a Cambridge graduate, retired for health reasons from a position in Customs, and spent most of his life. according to my mother, moving to stay ahead of the creditors, I always felt that for my parent's generation, anyone who owned property must be at least middle class.
This is obviously no longer the case.
(As a coincidental aside, my grandfather also left his first wife and had six children with my grandmother. His first wife would not divorce him and my mother, uncles and aunts did not find out until they started getting married and needed birth and baptismal certificates etc. )
I would consider all my cousin's on my father's side to be upwardly mobile working class, almost without exception they left formal education at the earliest opportunity and tend to use their manual abilities to earn a living, whereas most of my cousins on my mother's side (including my siblings) went to university and went on from there, so I would consider them as middle class.
However, is the class difference a generational thing? Do our children worry or even think about these things? My children have never mentioned it to me, they just get on with living.
On another matter, given that most of us have similar backgrounds, one must assume that the current generation of CH students also come from similar backgrounds. I know that my parents struggled to pay school fees, both worked, but they both agreed that a good education was an indispensable start to working life. Assuming that all our parents struggled to pay the fees, has the system changed or is it that we are now in a position to be aware of how others struggle to pay the fees, viz other threads on this forum?

[Katharine]

On another matter, given that most of us have similar backgrounds, one must assume that the current generation of CH students also come from similar backgrounds. I know that my parents struggled to pay school fees, both worked, but they both agreed that a good education was an indispensable start to working life. Assuming that all our parents struggled to pay the fees, has the system changed or is it that we are now in a position to be aware of how others struggle to pay the fees, viz other threads on this forum?

I know when I left school and applied for my grant (Oh happy days to have a student grant!), my parents were expecting to continue to pay as much towards my education as they had done while I was at Hertford. They were absolutely amazed at Hertfordshire's generosity - they only had to contribute one-twentieth of the sum. For the first time in their lives they were able to save a little towards a retirement home (a vicar loses his home on retirement).

I'm not sure whether this tells us that the Foundation were grasping then, or that grants were very generous!

[sejintenej]

Sorry, Angela, but your original post annoyed me. What is the definition of working class, lower/upper middle class etc?

I've seen enough examples of what people are describing and it has not sat well with me.
OK so I started off "below stairs" which I suppose is as working class as you can get.
I had an aunt on the banks of the Lagan (about as awful and smelly as you can imagine) in a 2 up 2 down house with 2 sons; she reserved the parlour for visiting vicars - who never came but she had a parlour which made her middle class in her eyes. (The fact that the only other downstairs room - kitchen, living room and place where the tim bath was used on Saturday night - was tiny and cold was irrelevant). Yes, I've seen women who try to act as if they are pillars of society keeping up with the Joneses but are they real people. I label them "nouveau riche"

I have also seen people who seemed to thrive in any milieu - the Bank governor prepared to explain banking to a young kid, the ex-etonian indistinguishable from the tractor driver he was helping and who was oblivious to any social difference and could and would help anyone.

What class am I now? I don't know or care. I am me - take me as I am or ignore me.

Give me the person who does not try to project a false image. Accents? - a few of you have heard the terrible accent CH foisted on me from the age of nine when I learned English (very much toned down apparently) - I hate it

[anniexf]

"I know my place" !!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0DUsGSMwZY

[Fjgrogan]

I have just quoted elsewhere from 'All things bright and beautiful' - perhaps it would be appropriate to quote here the verse which has quietly disappeared from the same hymn, presumably because it signified outdated Victorian attitudes, but I am sure we were still singing it when I was at Hertford (typical of CH to be so far behind the times!) ........

The rich man in his castle
The poor man at his gate
God made them high or lowly
And ordered their estate'!

I grew up on a council estate in West Kensington and then Roehampton. My father drove things - buses, lorries, taxis, Bentleys, at various times in my life, but mostly during my childhood he was private chauffeur to a city gent. My mother didn't believe in 'latchkey kids' so she stayed home with us, but occasionally she would work as a waitress at Earl's Court exhibitions, or Jewish weddings (which happened on my Dad's day off, so he was there to look after us). When I married it was to an engineer in a local factory. I never really got into a career, but did a lot of secretarial work and eventually went back to college and got a degree of sorts, which I have never really used. So on the whole I would consider myself working class. However, when my sister was studying she asked one of the lecturers how her children would be classified, given their family history; my sister by this stage had qualified as a teacher and was taking a second degree in Psychology (she eventually went into counselling), so could be considered middle-class, but her husband was a manual worker and therefore working class. She added that we had grown up on a council estate, and she and my brother had been educated at the local comprehensive, but that her sister (me!) had been to a public school. The lecturer asked what her parents had been (see above) and then pronounced that they had been 'in service' and therefore aspired to the life of the middle class whom they had served. I cannot believe that my parents would ever have seen it that way! Does it really matter anyway? Surely we are what we make ourselves, depending on how we deal with the circumstances that life throws at us!

[Ajarn Philip]

Does it really matter anyway?

Of course not! " I yam what I yam!" Was that Popeye or the cheeseburger chappy? But it's all so oorfly English, darlings, and therefore fascinating by its crass stupidity.

[kerrensimmonds]

I think that we are what we make of ourselves - and that in terms of 'class' definition this shifts over time. My parents were probably 'lower-middle class' when I went to school (my Dad was a lowly paid public servant in Local Government and my Mum was not working apart from bringing up a family. We lived in accommodation associated with my Dad's job). My grandparents were 'lower class', a Cemetery keeper, a steel works worker, a milliner/housewife (my paternal grandfather had died when my Dad was very young). It was not until recently that I realised that my parents must have paid some level of fees to CH - although I had a 'Governor' to whom I had to write dutifully, I had naievely thought that she paid my fees. Not so.... My parents were so proud that just after my 9th birthday I had secured admission to a 'public school' and I spent the next nine years in total ignorance of how they might have been struggling to contribute to my education while I, frankly, had a ball.
Aged 18, I emerged into Higher Education believing that there was something 'extra' about me because I had been to 'public school'. Fortunately that world view did not last long as I found my new way amongst my new College contemporaries.
These days, as a single person I own my own home (or rather the Woolwich does..), whereas my parents always lived in rented accommodation. What does that say about the way in the world for which CH may have prepared me?

[Kim2s70-77]

"I know my place" !!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0DUsGSMwZY

Nice one, Anniexf !!

[englishangel]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8223453.stm

[Angela Woodford]

A superb link, Mary. I laughed and laughed! I once visited a school friend in Battersea whose mother produced egg and chips at 5pm and this was one of the most delicious meals that I have ever eaten.

Now I have to think how ever to reply to David. who I have annoyed. I do now long to describe my love of the fabulous family of my dear friend Deirdre (in 7's) who were.... upper class.... but shall I?

"Sorry, Angela, but your original post annoyed me. What is the definition of working class, lower/upper middle class etc?"

I wish I were clever enough to try to define the English class system, David. There is no easy definition is there? At the time, I could just tell that Weenie's upper-middle family were different from my family, and I thoroughly enjoyed observing this.

Fascinating.

Much as I disliked and resented the CH system of dressing us all in the same ghastly hand-me-down uniform, it was a great leveller wasn't it? Nobody was better dressed than anybody else. A new garment was very much appreciated. Accents seemed to disappear. Nobody ever bragged about money or possessions. Rosalynde Bush's family lived in an incredibly huge house in Blackheath - I remember now how lovely it was. I joined in a discussion about what Weenie should wear to attend Glyndebourne. Girls sketched out their ideas of an evening dress for a fourteen year old. There was no resentment.

What really counted at Hertford was brains, originality, eccentricity! Oh, and needlework.

That's how I remember our lives, anyway!

[anniexf]

Angela Woodford wrote:

What really counted at Hertford was brains, originality, eccentricity!

Originality? Eccentricity?

Not in the 50s!!! It was total conformity all the way. Any sign of individuality was stamped on at once. We were expected to suppress any inclination to deviate from the norm, for the good of the whole. As I wrote on another thread, we were forced into a mould of someone else's design, and if bits of us got damaged in the process, tough!

[sejintenej]

Now I have to think how ever to reply to David. who I have annoyed. I do now long to describe my love of the fabulous family of my dear friend Deirdre (in 7's) who were.... upper class.... but shall I?

"Sorry, Angela, but your original post annoyed me. What is the definition of working class, lower/upper middle class etc?"

Angela; it wasn't YOU that I was annoyed with (if that is correct English) but the concepts which you raised. IMHO there are far far too many people who spend far too much time trying to be of a higher "class" than their neighbours and take those efforts to ridiculous lengths (I gave the example of my own Aunt).

I wish I were clever enough to try to define the English class system, David. There is no easy definition is there? At the time, I could just tell that Weenie's upper-middle family were different from my family, and I thoroughly enjoyed observing this.

Certainly I agree with you, Angela. But there again you refer to Weenie's family as being "upper-middle" class which surely simply means that they were "better" than your family and those whom you knew who were better than your family.

Does a title give you "class"? Surely not when one remembers that there is a duke or somesuch who is a bus driver by necessity and the man whom some think is entitled to be the true sovereign of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a lowly worker in Australia (I do not comment on whether or not the claim is valid!).
Does education give you "class"? There are Eton and Roedean ex-pupils who have made names for themselves in somewhat undesirable circumstances so I consider the answer is no; education in those establishments is more about how many groats the parents can stump up than breeding (ie DNA).
As an example if Lord Brockett is "upper class" by birth, by education and by original wealth who would like to be associated with him by being rated as also being "upper class"?

We seem to live in a system where there is great potential to better oneself so the person of working class parents can have a far better standard of living but still consider him/herself and be considered by others as being working class. I would prefer that the whole arguement disappear under the sands of time.

Verily "I am what I am"

(Quotations edited for accuracy)

[englishangel]

I think Angela meant among your peers not the staff. Especially if you could get away with it.

[Jo]

I suppose I feel more in common with Katharine's description than anyone else's. My father was also a C of E vicar, so we always lived in large houses and enjoyed a social position in the village that were not matched by my parents' income. Which, of course, is how, despite a seemingly middle-class lifestyle, I qualified for CH. At home I always had my own room, so it was a bit of a shock to share with 17 others.

My mother was from a working-class background, but they have their own form of snobbery - her mother had been "in service", which was infinitely prefererable, don't you know, to working in a factory or something So, thanks to her experience of living with the upper classes, my grandmother knew how "things should be done". My mother, being very aspirational and middle-class, has a fixation about tables being set correctly, cutlery being held and used correctly, and so on. All of which I now notice, but hate myself for doing so.

I tend to shun any form of class aspirations these days - working, middle, upper, whatever. I admire my parents-in-law, both from lower-middle class backgrounds, but both Oxford graduates but with no pretensions whatsoever. John started off as an agricultural engineer but couldn't cope with the stress of a high-powered job and drove buses for most of his working life. Elizabeth was a history teacher but gave up to have the children, and later in life worked on a factory production line when they needed money. They live very modestly and but there is a sort of air of unaffected intellectual gentility about them.

I agree with whoever said the labels don't mean much these days. Those who want to socially compartmentalise people tend to use factors such as daily newspapers, which is quite a discreet way of ascertaining whether money is old or new

[Kim2s70-77]

I am fascinated by the whole discussion of 'class' differences in this thread - especially as I have spent the last 23 years in the US where the playing field is supposedly more level. (Unless you are black, hispanic or female, of course!) I can't say I ever really thought of class as the distinction - more an issue of different values. My father was the oldest of a tribe of poor children in the East end of London and his father died of TB when the youngest was an infant. My father was bright and doing well in school, but had to leave to support the younger children. He went into the army in WW 2 and advanced quickly through the ranks - so he was Lt Colonel fairly rapidly. He was therefore with officers of varied backgrounds. My mother was the youngest of a 2nd generation Irish family, who had little money, but who greatly valued education . The children were educated on scholarships by Jesuits and emphasis was placed on reading/ broadening the mind etc. As a young adult, my mother travelled to the far East with the Foreign Office in Mounbatten's attache. That is where my parents met. Growing up, I had lots of cousins in the East end (some with outside toilets etc) who had LOTS more money than my family - but spent it on new clothes/ TVs/toys etc etc . We wore hand-me-downs and home made clothes - but had lots of books, went to the theatre and concerts, travelled abroad and owned our house. They ate egg and chips etc/ we always used a lot of garlic and spices. My cousins thought I 'talked posh' because they had cockney accents and my mother was a stickler for diction and correct grammar. Their goals for adulthood included a good marriage and all the 'trappings' of obvious financial success, whereas mine included college, further education, travel etc. I remember talking to my mother about some of this, when I was about 11. We were living in a nice part of Blackheath in London, I was at CH and we were visiting relatives in Stepney. My cousin, Pat, had a new outfit EVERY FRIDAY, when her father got paid and owned every new toy that ever came on the market. There was something that I desperately wanted, but we didn't have the money, and I couldn't understand why, if my relatives had all this money (they were liberally generous with ten shilling notes whenever I visited), they still had outside toilets! My mother gently explained that it was all about differences in what people considered important - things that lasted, like education, or more temporary gratifications. It made sense to me.
Having said that, I have an ear for mimicry and have always found myself unconsciously echoing accents that are around me (lots of ooh-arrs in Devon and ay-oops up North etc). Funnily enough - I am STILL considered to have a British accent over here (although I am sometimes asked if I come from Australia!!), but my relatives in UK tell me I have an American accent.
The only 'class' distinction I remember at CH, was an awareness that the things Kate Donovan took for granted were vastly different to the things that I experienced at home. She talked of Club Med trips to the S of France; jags with car phones (in those days!!); an apartment in S. Kensington; trips to Harrods etc. Her mother lived with a man who regularly took Concord to the States and I coveted the pencil bag she had from one of the Concord flights. She also used to have the most INCREDIBLE birthday cakes delivered to CH. One year it was an entire carousel with horses. These were not things she boasted of - just facts that emerged naturally. Uniform was definitely a leveller!!