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Re: Politics
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:17 pm
by graham
J.R. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:32 pm
I can't open your link as I won't have anything to do with Farcebook, especially now that Cloggy has joined their ranks.
But you know Nige is there too?!
Far enough though. I so want you to see this that I'll post this alternative link to the video
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/10 ... .mp4?tag=5
Re: Politics
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:35 pm
by CodFlabAndMuck
Golfer wrote: ↑Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:00 pm
This is nonsense.
The Brexit we will get will be one that no-one voted for.
We need a second vote on the Brexit deal that is eventually agreed.
Because the deal we will get is not really Brexit.
And if we get a "no deal Brexit" then it definitely wasn't what we voted for.
So then we absolutely have to have another People's Vote.
Another peoples' vote is a very blunt instrument for addressing a very complex problem
What would the question be?
If you vote No, I don't want the negotiated deal, what are you voting for?
Remain? Hard Brexit?
Reestablishing checkpoints along the irish border?
Irish unification/scottish/welsh independence?
Re: Politics
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:18 am
by sejintenej
J.R. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:26 pm
The mere thought of another vote or referendum and the possibility of the UK having to continue being ruled by European despots, alcoholics and wannabe's sickens me to the core.
I have no problem with some sort of trade deal on tariffs as long as it isn't all in their favour.
I don't want their courts telling us what we can/cannot do in our country.
Immigration has to be more heavily controlled than it is under EU regulations
I could go on and on and on but I expect you get my drift by now.
Tin hats on everyone !!!!
My understanding (and I understyand that the government of the day was so advised) is that Britain's constitution prohibits any form of being rukled from outside its borders. Britain could enter into an agreement to open its borders to trade and movement (which ws a major part of the Common Market) but the demand that Britain bring into force any demand made from outside is unacceptable.
The vote was a simple one - stay in the EU OR leave the EU. The majority was that Britain leave; the present yakking is simply about what comes afterwards and understandably the government is trying to enter into a trade agreement to follow our leaving plus a few other agreements.
In view of that Reichschancellor's attitude and actions I wonderif the agreement signed by her predecessor in 1945 would allow us to take over Germany
Re: Politics
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:51 pm
by Golfer
I can't quite believe that the Conservative and UNIONIST Party has set in train the break-up of the UK. Cameron & May may go down together as the worst ever PMs. Brexit is a narrowly English obsession.
Re: Politics
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:46 pm
by michael scuffil
The UK as a member of the EU is not ruled from 'outside' any more than Kent is ruled by the West Midlands. In practice, about 1% of EU directives were opposed by the UK. Membership of NATO involves a far greater surrender of sovereignty, as it commits us to sending British service personnel to their possible deaths in certain circumstances.
The constitutional position is quite clear. Parliament is sovereign (not, incidentally, the people). A parliament cannot bind itself, nor can it bind future parliaments (otherwise they wouldn't be sovereign). In this sense, 'rule' from outside the UK can only be by mutual agreement with the outside party (unless there is a revolutionary situation in which the current constitution is ditched). The UK maintains many such agreements which inhibit its freedom of action.
Seeing the UK opted out of Schengen and the euro, the only major change in Europe to affect the UK since 1975 was the introduction of the Single Market on 31 December 1992 which allowed you to bring a carload of booze in from Calais unchallenged. That, I need hardly remind you, was imposed on the EU almost single-handed by Margaret Thatcher, who, with the Single European Act, did more than anyone else to integrate the UK with Europe.
Frankly Mrs May has only one honourable option when she loses the vote: to stand up and say 'Parliament has voted down the only possible Brexit option, hence Brexit is dead'. She can then, by order-in-council, retract Article 50. Either house of parliament can 'pray' (as the language goes) against an order-in-council, but as there is a huge 'remain' majority in both houses of the sovereign parliament, such a 'prayer' would not succeed. Mrs May should then resign and hand over to a national unity government for the lifetime of this parliament.
Re: Politics
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:00 pm
by sejintenej
michael scuffil wrote: ↑Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:46 pm
Seeing the UK opted out of Schengen and the euro, the only major change in Europe to affect the UK since 1975 was the introduction of the Single Market on 31 December 1992 which allowed you to bring a carload of booze in from Calais unchallenged. That, I need hardly remind you, was imposed on the EU almost single-handed by Margaret Thatcher, who, with the Single European Act, did more than anyone else to integrate the UK with Europe.
You omit the fact that the Government allowed the European Court of Human Rights to effectively overturn and judgement by our courts.
Also the government agreed that if some erk at Brussels decided on something then we are FORCED to pass laws to comply with that, whether we like it or not.
Don't forget that effectively Brussels is demanding that we give up sovereinty over Ulster which is what the RCs have been bloodily fighting for since 1925 or so. This could cause a bl**dy backlash from the Protestants and with Unster no longer under UK full legal control .......... Brussels would have to send in
their troops.
michael scuffil wrote: ↑Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:46 pm
Frankly Mrs May has only one honourable option when she loses the vote: to stand up and say 'Parliament has voted down the only possible Brexit option, hence Brexit is dead'. She can then, by order-in-council, retract Article 50. Either house of parliament can 'pray' (as the language goes) against an order-in-council, but as there is a huge 'remain' majority in both houses of the sovereign parliament, such a 'prayer' would not succeed. Mrs May should then resign and hand over to a national unity government for the lifetime of this parliament.
I'm not sure of the original wording used but perhaps on W-Day we will simply no longer be a member of the EU based on the original notice?
Re: Politics
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:13 pm
by Avon
sejintenej wrote: ↑Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:00 pm
Don't forget that effectively Brussels is demanding that we give up sovereinty over Ulster which is what the RCs have been bloodily fighting for since 1925 or so. This could cause a bl**dy backlash from the Protestants and with Unster no longer under UK full legal control .......... Brussels would have to send in
their troops.
A situation devoutly to be desired, in my view. It might concentrate the minds of both sides if the EU or UN were patrolling the streets.
Re: Politics
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:14 pm
by sejintenej
Golfer wrote: ↑Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:51 pm
I can't quite believe that the Conservative and UNIONIST Party has set in train the break-up of the UK. Cameron & May may go down together as the worst ever PMs. Brexit is a narrowly English obsession.
That is what Brussels is demanding and UK trying to control
Re: Politics
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:20 pm
by sejintenej
Avon wrote: ↑Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:13 pm
A situation devoutly to be desired, in my view. It might concentrate the minds of both sides if the EU or UN were patrolling the streets.
That post is NOT helpful. I was home a few months ago and could well judge the mood about any influence from outside Stormont and London. It is still a city divided by walls and wire with areas still dangerous to the wrong side. What you are proposing is giving control to a vocal and occasionally violent
minority.
Re: Politics
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:09 pm
by Avon
sejintenej wrote: ↑Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:20 pm
Avon wrote: ↑Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:13 pm
A situation devoutly to be desired, in my view. It might concentrate the minds of both sides if the EU or UN were patrolling the streets.
That post is NOT helpful. I was home a few months ago and could well judge the mood about any influence from outside Stormont and London. It is still a city divided by walls and wire with areas still dangerous to the wrong side. What you are proposing is giving control to a vocal and occasionally violent
minority.
It was tours in Ulster that helped me to understand why I valued being English and less so British. Not worth the bones of any soldiers from the shires - and certainly not worth the present fuss.
It’s not helpful that such a hidebound place has been jerked out of the 17thC into transient relevance whilst the **** that is Brexit is being hammered out, and we go through the charade of indulging their abhorrent views.
Re: Politics
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:44 pm
by rockfreak
Hell's Bells! I never thought to find myself in agreement with Avon. The appearance of the hard-faced, tight-lipped, Protestant bigots of the DUP leadership at the last election was like stumbling through the Amazon rainforest and coming across a primitive tribe that everyone thought was extinct. A pundit described them as The Old Testament with Bi-weekly Bin Collections. They got rid of Ian Paisley and "No Popery" but now they've got Arlene Foster and "No Gropery" (at least not for gays and lesbians). They don't even appear to represent the views of the rest of Ulster. And come on Sejintenej, what about the historical violence of the Loyalist paramilitaries?
Re: Politics
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:20 pm
by Golfer
sejintenej wrote: ↑Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:14 pm
Golfer wrote: ↑Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:51 pm
the break-up of the UK. That is what Brussels is demanding and UK trying to control
Utter nonsense. It is the UK that is self-harming. It is the UNIONIST Party that is bringing on this disaster.
It is unbearable for me as someone that loves Scotland dearly. It was where I learned to play golf and the experience of playing on Scottish links courses earned me my Oxford Blue. I absolutely can't bear the idea of showing my passport north of Carlise or North Berwick.
Re: Politics
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:35 pm
by J.R.
Well, Rees-Fogg and his pal Boris the Spider now have 12 months to plot more treason against their party. They should be shot as traitors against their country
Get to Europe Teresa now, and tell them, 'Deal with us or Get Stuffed.'
Re: Politics
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:02 am
by Mid A 15
Golfer wrote: ↑Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:51 pm
I can't quite believe that the Conservative and UNIONIST Party has set in train the break-up of the UK. Cameron & May may go down together as the worst ever PMs.
Brexit is a narrowly English obsession.
Not quite. Wales also voted 'LEAVE.'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028
Re: Politics
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:08 pm
by eucsgmrc
Teresa May's "deal" involves the idea of a frictionless border between Northern Ireland and (the Republic of) Ireland. That's a border between the European Customs Union and a territory outside the customs union. A lot of people (but not everyone who matters) seem to believe that a frictionless border is possible.
If you can have a frictionless border between the customs union and not-in-the-union, then
1. if it's truly frictionless, then what's the problem if it's an internal border within a state? (bear with me - I know why the DUP don't like the sound of that)
2. if it's possible at all, wouldn't it be easier if it's operated by the same state on both sides of the border?
So how about letting Scotland be on the Customs Union side of the border? Scotland voted to remain in the EU, and would be happy with free movement of people and so on.
Then Northern Ireland could be on the Customs Union side (which they also voted for in the referendum) without being treated differently from the rest of the UK. So, no change at all needed in the border arrangements between NI and Ireland.