The Pope's Visit

[Mid A 15]

I was privileged to attend the Beatification Mass for Cardinal John Henry Newman, held in Cofton Park Birmingham, yesterday (Sunday 19th September). The whole experience was very moving and the music and choral singing (to me a non-musician and singer) superb.

Did any other forum members attend this or any of the other events, Masses or Vigils during the Pope's visit?

[Fjgrogan]

No, but I watched the Westminster Abbey service on TV, and felt there was something slightly odd about a former member of the Hitler Youth praying at the tomb of the unknown warrior! I know he had no choice about being conscripted, but I still felt awkward about it. I also watched the Mass in Glasgow, and highlights of the proceedings at St Mary's, Twickenham, mainly because it is my daughter (Kirri)'s old college and my nephew is about to become a student there. I have a soft spot for the college chapel there. A former flatmate of Maria and Kirri's was also married there - Maria was at the Edinburgh Festival at the time, so we took along to the wedding her (then new) Finnish boyfriend - it was his first experience of an English wedding - a full RC nuptial mass - no wonder it took he and Maria so long to get around to getting married!!

I know almost nothing about Cardinal Newman. What exactly did he do that qualified him for beatification - presumably not just turning his back on the Anglican church?! I do however remember reading some of his words from the Dream of Gerontius at my mother's funeral.

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

Newman also wrote several wonderful hymns, which are still sung in both Catholic and Anglican Churches.

As to Benedict's service in the Hitler Youth ----- with no option -- we might remember a certain King of England (Uncrowned !) who seemed to have sentiments akin to the Nazis in 1937, and was "Exiled" to the Bahamas for the duration of the War.

Casting stones at Benedict, reminds me of Glass Houses !

[Mid A 15]

No, but I watched the Westminster Abbey service on TV, and felt there was something slightly odd about a former member of the Hitler Youth praying at the tomb of the unknown warrior! I know he had no choice about being conscripted, but I still felt awkward about it. I also watched the Mass in Glasgow, and highlights of the proceedings at St Mary's, Twickenham, mainly because it is my daughter (Kirri)'s old college and my nephew is about to become a student there. I have a soft spot for the college chapel there. A former flatmate of Maria and Kirri's was also married there - Maria was at the Edinburgh Festival at the time, so we took along to the wedding her (then new) Finnish boyfriend - it was his first experience of an English wedding - a full RC nuptial mass - no wonder it took he and Maria so long to get around to getting married!!

I know almost nothing about Cardinal Newman. What exactly did he do that qualified him for beatification - presumably not just turning his back on the Anglican church?! I do however remember reading some of his words from the Dream of Gerontius at my mother's funeral.

My only formal qualification towards answering this question is "O" level Divinity (grade 3 Oxford and Cambridge Board) in 1970 courtesy of Mrs Wilson which I fear is inadequate!

However here goes anyway!

It is my understanding that Cardinal John Henry Newman was a highly respected, if not the most respected, theologian in both the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches. Thus he had "the ear" of both Popes and Archbishops because of his great knowledge and wisdom. In fact he was eventually appointed Cardinal without ever having been a Roman Catholic Bishop which, I believe, is and was very unusual.

Apart from his academic background he also formed various "Oratories" which survive, to the best of my knowledge, in Birmingham, London and Oxford. The Oratories offered education to deserving people regardless of background, something we on this forum can identify with, and were also effectively monasteries.

Pope John Paul 2nd and Pope Benedict XV1 were both very influenced by the teachings of Cardinal John Henry Newman (JHN) and Pope Benedict in particular observes JHN's "Cardinal Motto" "Heart speaks unto heart" which is a translation of Cor ad Cor Loquitur.

These are uncertain times for both the Roman Catholic Church and Christianity in general and, although it often does not look like it (!) ecumenism is the aim of both the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches.

Cardinal John Henry Newman, I believe, is considered an appropiate model towards ecumenism given his life's spiritual journey.

[Mid A 15]

Newman also wrote several wonderful hymns, which are still sung in both Catholic and Anglican Churches.

As to Benedict's service in the Hitler Youth ----- with no option -- we might remember a certain King of England (Uncrowned !) who seemed to have sentiments akin to the Nazis in 1937, and was "Exiled" to the Bahamas for the duration of the War.

Casting stones at Benedict, reminds me of Glass Houses !

During his homily on Sunday he praised the British people for their brave resistance to the "evil ideology" of Nazism.

I'm not sure what else he can do to make his views clearer. As you correctly say he had no choice.

One can perhaps draw a parallel with Nelson Mandela. A man rightly loved and revered throughout the world. However once upon a time he was a terrorist.

[Fjgrogan]

Ah - Francis William sounds far more like my kind of guy, based solely on that one article. I think I shall investigate them both further! Is it known who the 'boyfriend ' was? And am I right in thinking that in order to be canonised the Church demands proof of healing miracles having been performed? That seems a bit unfair - maybe some potential Saints had 'talents' other than healing!?

[Fjgrogan]

I said recently that I know nothing about Cardinal Newman. However, yesterday when I was clearing a mess of paperwork in my study I came across a piece of paper which had clearly originally been stapled to something else. I have no idea where it came from or why and when I kept it, but it must have struck a chord with me somewhere in the past, and did so again when I read it today. This is what it said:

'God created me to do him some definite service. He has committed some work to me which he has not committed to another. I have my mission. I may never know it in this life, but I shall be told it in the next. I am a link in a chain, a bond of connection between persons. He has not created me for naught; I shall do good - I shall do his work; I shall be an angel of peace, a preacher of truth in my own place while not intending it, if I do but keep his commandments. Therefore I will trust him. Whatever I am, I can never be thrown away. If I am in sickness, my sickness may serve him; in perplexity, my perplexity may serve him; if I am in sorrow, my sorrow may serve him. He does nothing in vain. He knows what he is about. He may take away my friends, he may throw me among strangers, he may make me feel desolate, make my spirits sink, hide my future from me - still he knows what he is about.' Cardinal Newman.

[chaosriddenyears]

No, but I watched the Westminster Abbey service on TV, and felt there was something slightly odd about a former member of the Hitler Youth praying at the tomb of the unknown warrior! I know he had no choice about being conscripted, but I still felt awkward about it.

I don't think anyone need feel awkward about this. Pope Benedikt was born in 1927 - when the Nazis came into power in Germany in 1933 he was 6 years old. The Hitlerjugend was actually founded in 1926 - compulsory attendandance was brought in 1939 when Benedikt was 11. From the age of 10-14 children had to attend "das deutsche Jungvolk" - the HJ was from 14 upwards. It was a mixture of sport and scouts type stuff, singing round a camp fire all saturated with propoganda and became more military during the war for obvious reasons.Refusal to attend anything that was compulsory meant putting not only oneself but family and friends at considerable risk.

I don't think anyone would wish such a childhood and youth for themselves or for their children and I don't feel that a wish for reconciliation and regret for the victims of war could ever be awkward - it would have been far stranger if the pope had walked past the unknown warrior without a backward glance.

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

Well said, Chaosriddeyears ----- my views exactly !

It has been said that if Germany HAD conquered Britain, there would have been plenty of "Volunteers" for Concentration Camp Guards !

Some of us, who were around at the time, can remember the ridiculous propoganda, which was being pumped out during the War.
To have ridiculed it at the time, would have been very unpopular !

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

I appreciate that some were not happy about the visit --- I was not ecstatic--- my objection was, to the condemnation of a 10 year old Austrian, for his actions under an oppressive Regime.

I don't recall being a particular Saint (Although a BOY SCOUT !!!) at that particular age !!!!

[Fjgrogan]

['I don't recall being a Saint .........' said Neill]. No change there then, Neill!!

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

A Lobotomy can do wonders !

[J.R.]

A Lobotomy can do wonders !

What's that famous quote ?

"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy !"

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

I have read, with interest, this erudite discussion about the differences between the Newmans.

Some of it I have understood. (Only some !)

I believe myself to be a simple (?) Christian, and I believe that the fundament of Belief is Committment.

the alternative is Hypocrisy.

When I was first Elected, I stated in my Literature -- "I am a Christian"
this was viewed with suspicion and foot-shuffling by my political collegues "People may not like that "
My reply was "If you don't say it---- you ain't" and the amount of support I received "On the Doorstep" was astounding !

I won't go into my views about the modern Church -- (es ?) but compared with that of the 1st Century
I think we have a lot to learn !

[Angela Woodford]

Rather ironically Newman has now been disowned by one of his sisters, Harriet, and is about to make his critical leap. Such a cheerful family.

Newman has an interesting outlook regarding faith, he sees it as a form of energy rather than as staid facts. Activity rather than studied stasis.

I've got the second half of a battered old copy of Meriol Trevor's "Newman - Light in Winter". What a huge complicated biography it is! Newman's coughs and colds and letters and travels and attempts to jest with "muscular Christians" and wranglings with fellow celebrity Catholic Frederick Wilfrid Faber...

Faber must have seemed the complete opposite to Newman. Emotional, florid, dramatic, forceful, attracting a horde of romantically devoted youthful novices! (Somewhere in the bigraphy there's an account of Faber forcing one young man to do penance by kneeling on the floor to eat his dinner with one hundred picture frames hung around his neck...)

Aha. I dug out the book and I just looked up Harriett Mozley in the index. The last time Newman met his sister Harriett was in 1843. As you say, Alan; such a cheerful family. When do you consider that Harriett came to disown him? I appreciate your thoughts on Newman very much, and I'm grateful to you for that faith-as-a-form-of-energy summary. I couldn't seem to feel that after dipping many times into the biography, but I see that you're right .