In the public interest

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cj
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In the public interest

Post by cj »

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... harge.html

The news that Jon Venables, one of James Bulger's killers, has been sent back to prison has recently made national headlines. The Sun newspaper has declared the reason behind the man's return to prison to be a possible sex offence. I'm interested to know whether forumites think the public's interest IS best served by speculating on his activities, knowing what he has been doing or revealing his new identity. Was he entitled to a second chance and an opportunity to live a 'normal' life after serving his sentence or is a person convicted of a crime like his, despite the age he was when it was committed, beyond rehabilitation?
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NEILL THE NOTORIOUS
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Re: In the public interest

Post by NEILL THE NOTORIOUS »

I may well be corrected --- but I believe the Ministry's reason was the likelihood of the claim that he could not receive a fair Trial, anywhere within the circulation of the, said, newspaper (To give it an exalted title !)
This would have, successfully obviated any Trial ------- OOPS !

Should I, ever, be called to account, for my crimes -- (Which are mostly of the Tresspass and Poaching variety !) I would be upset if the Press had , already, decided upon my guilt and published their findings !

I hold no brief (Sorry about the pun ) for Venables, who committed an horiffic Crime, and has got away with a Licence, which seems to me to be premature.

HOWEVER I believe that the principle of "Innocence -until proven Guilty" under our laws is more important.


This will get you going --- there is a rumour that the EU would like to standardise the Legal Systems across Europe

This would mean the Napolionic Code ------ Guilty -- until YOU prove innocence ---- Comments ???
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Re: In the public interest

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Even the presumption "Innocent until proved Guilty" does not stop one from having your life ruined.
My sister, who is Head of Department for difficult children at a large Jewish school, has told me of an example in which an assistant teacher, still in training, was accused of something related to a child in his class.
The police were called, they found no case to answer, yet the incident has gone on his record and he is now virtually precluded from becoming a teacher, which is what he has wanted to become all his life.
Life ruined by an apparently false accusation.
I say "apparently'" as I was not given precise details, but the gist remains the same.
She has also told me how when interviewing for staff, religion does not come into it, and that she has some very good Muslim staff, and this in a Jewish school. Yet up the road, there is a Muslim school, which refuses to take any non Muslim staff. She feels that if she were to use their criteria for hiring staff, she would be prosecuted, but no-one will prosecute the Muslim school for fear of being accused of racism.
Yesterday was Open Day at CH and on the train back to Victoria, I met a Nigerian Methodist women, her Finnish husband and son, who had been at the Open Day. Apart from the literature, it was their first contact with CH.
She enthused about CH, the ethos, the facilities, the children, the mix, how well the Tuck Shop was stocked, everything. I tried to find out what she thought was wrong with CH, but she just hoped and prayed that she could get he son in. No problem with colour, no problem with religion, (she is the Discipleship and Training Officer for the London District of the Methodist Church), no problem with Boarding.
The husband was also very enthusiastic, and the son, Joshua, liked it but was happily buried in his nintendo.
I know I look at CH with rose tinted glasses, but for all it's faults, there seems to be another, much more confused world, outside the ringed fence.
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Re: In the public interest

Post by sejintenej »

jhopgood wrote:Even the presumption "Innocent until proved Guilty" does not stop one from having your life ruined.
My sister, who is Head of Department for difficult children at a large Jewish school, has told me of an example in which an assistant teacher, still in training, was accused of something related to a child in his class.
The police were called, they found no case to answer, yet the incident has gone on his record and he is now virtually precluded from becoming a teacher, which is what he has wanted to become all his life.
Life ruined by an apparently false accusation.
.
I have already made the point that, after about 15 years running a scout troop and a couple of years as a D of E examiner I am now prohibited from mworking with kids simply because I was adopted. These politicians are morons who have no sense of normality or common sense (unless you consider claiming excessive expenses improperly is normality)
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Re: In the public interest

Post by NEILL THE NOTORIOUS »

The question of "Adoption" and the predjudice, goes back a long way ---
When I was being "selected" for a Regular Commision, I had to undergo one of those 3 day events, with problems regarding ditches and bits of wood, which were too short, etc . you know the sort of thing.

It so happened that a good friend of mine was on the same "selection" and we compared notes, afterwards --- he was, in every way, a better Officer, than I was, and I looked up to him and learned a lot from him.

I passed --- he didn't. ---- Why ? he had been adopted !!!

They never told him this, but I know it could have been the only reason. The Army, in the 40s had a lot left over from the 30s ! -- I had to ask permission to get Married at 24 -- not 25 !!
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Re: In the public interest

Post by Mid A 15 »

Tough one this.

I am a great believer in "innocent until proven guilty" and Neill is absolutely correct that the EU is a threat to this in the longer term.

However Venables, or whatever he is known as now, is a convicted criminal and only in the community at large on licence. Therefore, in my opinion, innocent until proven guilty does not apply since he is already guilty and convicted of murder.

It is therefore very much in the public interest for criminal activities of convicted murderers in the community on licence to be made public. There have been too many instances of people being killed or seriously injured by criminals released early on parole.

My view would have been different had he not already been a convicted murderer.
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Re: In the public interest

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I think there are two possible ways of looking at this situation. Is he back in prison now because he has broken the terms of his licence, for example by regularly visiting Liverpool which he was banned from doing, or is it because he has committed another offence which is criminal per se? There is a lot of speculation in the media, but we do not know the truth. If he has done something which proves that he is still a danger to the public, then it is right that he should be back in jail for the safety of others, but if his offence is 'only' of breaking the terms of his licence, which he could do without necessarily being a danger to others, then it seems a bit harsh. What he did as a child was horrendous and I certainly do not condone it, but if he has been given a new identity then I feel that he should be treated now as a new person and not start off with a load of minus points against him. But it depends what it is that he has done. I hope he has not been reimprisoned for merely behaving as most young men his age do - nightclubbing, drink, drugs etc. The situation could then arise where he is with a group of friends who get a 'slap on the wrist' while he is sent to prison for the same behaviour. We do not know the facts, so we cannot judge. I wonder whether his parents were ever punished in any way for their failure to control him as a child?
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Re: In the public interest

Post by Angela Woodford »

sejintenej wrote:I have already made the point that, after about 15 years running a scout troop and a couple of years as a D of E examiner I am now prohibited from mworking with kids simply because I was adopted
I just choked on my cup of coffee and square of chocolate.

Cough! Cough! Splutter!

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Re: In the public interest

Post by sejintenej »

Angela Woodford wrote:
sejintenej wrote:I have already made the point that, after about 15 years running a scout troop and a couple of years as a D of E examiner I am now prohibited from mworking with kids simply because I was adopted
I just choked on my cup of coffee and square of chocolate.

Cough! Cough! Splutter!

RIDICULOUS!

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Seems like I need your counsellor - the bit I DIDN'T write is even more stupid, but then that is the measure of those people in Westminster. Do you wonder that Britain has a net emigration figure?
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Re: In the public interest

Post by mvgrogan »

Fjgrogan wrote:I think there are two possible ways of looking at this situation. Is he back in prison now because he has broken the terms of his licence, for example by regularly visiting Liverpool which he was banned from doing, or is it because he has committed another offence which is criminal per se? There is a lot of speculation in the media, but we do not know the truth. If he has done something which proves that he is still a danger to the public, then it is right that he should be back in jail for the safety of others, but if his offence is 'only' of breaking the terms of his licence, which he could do without necessarily being a danger to others, then it seems a bit harsh. What he did as a child was horrendous and I certainly do not condone it, but if he has been given a new identity then I feel that he should be treated now as a new person and not start off with a load of minus points against him. But it depends what it is that he has done. I hope he has not been reimprisoned for merely behaving as most young men his age do - nightclubbing, drink, drugs etc. The situation could then arise where he is with a group of friends who get a 'slap on the wrist' while he is sent to prison for the same behaviour. We do not know the facts, so we cannot judge. I wonder whether his parents were ever punished in any way for their failure to control him as a child?
The problem is that he hasn;t served the full term of his sentence. He was released early, on license, which means that the court has the right to whip him back in for even the slightest breach of that license, the crime is breaching the license whatever he did. He is not innocent, he has been proved guilty and he still has time to serve.

I was surprised at my own reaction to this news. When it originally happened I was of course appalled but it was a long time ago and now, as the mother of 2 young children, one only just older than Jamie Bulger was, I found myself in floods of tears remembering what had happened to that poor little boy. I always thought they were young and should be given the chance of a fresh start, once they served their time...but I am not so sure now... maternal hormones!

The news I have seen seems to indicate child pornography charges...is that just speculation?
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Re: In the public interest

Post by jhopgood »

Until the facts come out, I think I would like to reserve judgement as to whether he has violated the terms of his release or possibly committed a new crime. However, from the words used about not prejudicing his case, it does seem to be the latter. In which case, it really doesn't matter who he was as he may well go to trial for a new crime.
Unless I am mistaken, there were 2 involved, and I assume the other has been released on similar terms, and so far, has not got himself into trouble. Long may it last.
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Re: In the public interest

Post by J.R. »

It would now appear that the possible charges relate to child pornography relating to stored images.

In view of the original conviction when he was a child himself, it would seem obvious that the period of 'rehabilitation' he received during incaceration did NOT work, OR, the powers-that-be who sanctioned his release got it badly wrong.

I hate to say this, but.... 'Nothing New There, Then !!"
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Re: In the public interest

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NEILL THE NOTORIOUS wrote: They never told him this, but I know it could have been the only reason. The Army, in the 40s had a lot left over from the 30s ! -- I had to ask permission to get Married at 24 -- not 25 !!
Not only the Army. My employment contract with XYZ Bank also stated that I couldn't get married before the age of 25 (that age from memory - could have been 26). In the event my fiancee had to undergo a weekend at a country house hosted by members of one of the founding families so that they could decide if she was a suitable bride for me!! Her stories of that weekend have enlivened quite a few dinner parties - and she got away with it! (I was present but couldn't tell her what to expect - look at a recording of "Upstairs, Downstairs" for enlightenment!)

I am sure that XYZ no longer have such clauses in their employment contracts.

In fact there was a lot of logic in that requirement. I could have been posted for 15 months to (for example) Tamale branch way up north in Ghana which was cut off from everywhere for 10 continuous months - a young girl probably could not have taken the pressures whereas an older employee would have understood better the problems and could have taken remedial action. Postings elsewhere were for up to 36 months with no leave.
As it was I was further south in "civilization" and saw the immense problems some wives even in their thirties couldn't cope with. I had one boss (not in that bank) in his forties, marrried, children left home, who couldn't cope with being posted abroad in a major city for 6 weeks!
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Re: In the public interest

Post by Katharine »

I'm sure I've told you before David, that Tamale is NOT way up north! I was in Navrongo, now that IS the North! I'm not sure what you mean by cut off for 10 months.
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Re: In the public interest

Post by NEILL THE NOTORIOUS »

One of the "Dangers" -- particularly in the Army -- for the prospective Bride, is that she may become Queen Bee, with all that it involves, My first Wife Virginia ----hated it, but still had to put up with hosting Coffee Mornings, and listening to confidential woes being poured into her ear --- she would not tell me what they were, but would occasionally mutter under her breath -- when a cerain name was mentioned ---- "stupid bitch" !! :lol: :lol:
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