Health and safety gone mad!

[Fjgrogan]

It seems strange to me that during the two World Wars thousands were killed at comparatively close quarters and many were never even named or their bodies traced; by contrast today each individual death is recorded by name and yet in reality today we have the potential available for wholesale slaughter at the touch of a button - and it could be done automatically at long distance without the button-pusher ever actually setting eyes on the bodies, which you would think would make it 'easier' and 'less personal', but we don't do that. Is this a sign that we are more humane now than we were in the past? And how does this equate with the trend for video games etc which treat killing as a form of entertainment, where the killer rarely sees the consequences of his actions, and the dead body bounces back ready for the next game? is it any wonder that so many young people today see nothing wrong in shooting or stabbing anyone who upsets them? I seem to be turning into a grumpy old woman!

[englishangel]

Our soldiers are indiviually named, what about the estimated 100,000 civilian Iraquis killed with nary a mention.

[Fjgrogan]

Sad but true, english angel. I stand corrected.

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

My Grandfather (Sorry -- Military Family !) WO1 Edward Evans DCM, told me that he had killed many people, but had very rarely seen any of them --- he being Royal Horse Artillery. I believe, being mostly Infantry, myself, that this probably applies to most Artillery, particularly the "Heavies"during WW1---- but With Ack-Ack and Anti- Tank -- youat least know what you have hit and what you have missed !

It has always struck me, that, on Remembrance Day, we remember the Forces who have died, but no mention is made of the Civilians ---on both sides.

Perhaps on the matter of Dresden ---- we need to !-----

Esteemed Moderator ---- are we not "Off Topic"
It might be better on Remembrance day ---- but these may well be the last "Posts"
Sorry about the Pun !

[J.R.]

An elderly friend of my late father, who must have been of retirement age when I knew him when I was around 10, was a machine gunner in the trenches in WW1. His memories were horrific, but he insisted youngsters should know what the trenches entailed.

His experiences made him a confirmed pacifist after 1918, saying, if countries had their differences, then the politicians should fight it out on the field of battle.

[Fjgrogan]

I agree whole-heartedly with your uncle JR. I hope that my children will remember that I encouraged them to watch film of the holocaust. Unless we see such scenes it is difficult to believe that human beings were - and apparently still are - capable of such atrocities. Perhaps the children of today will need to be told that this was real life, not computer simulations? I remember at the age of about 8 being 'allowed' by my parents to get up - only after my younger brother and sister were asleep - to watch a television series called 'War in the Air'. I was born on the day that the surrender was signed at the end of World War II and my parents thought it was important that I should have some understanding of what it was all about.

[loringa]

It has always struck me, that, on Remembrance Day, we remember the Forces who have died, but no mention is made of the Civilians ---on both sides.

In our church we have, on the one hand, a very traditional service with most of the serving personnel wearing uniform, a march past by the Royal British Legion, Scouts and Guides, bugler for the last post etc but, on the other, the Vicar makes it quite clear that she is including everyone, Service and civilian, who died or suffered in or from conflict in both the more general prayers and the act of remembrance. Even on the Remembrance Day parades I have attended in operational theatres I am pretty sure that the Padre included everyone in his prayers. I suspect that this is nowadays the case in most churches.

By the way, what do you call a female Padre?

[englishangel]

Madre I suppose. Though Chaplain covers both, or does it?

Incidentally it was announced today that the first woman has joined the Red Arrows.

[icomefromalanddownunder]

An elderly friend of my late father, who must have been of retirement age when I knew him when I was around 10, was a machine gunner in the trenches in WW1. His memories were horrific, but he insisted youngsters should know what the trenches entailed.

His experiences made him a confirmed pacifist after 1918, saying, if countries had their differences, then the politicians should fight it out on the field of battle.

'I Was Only 19' by John Schumann

Someone yelled out 'Contact' and the bloke behind me swore.
We hooked in there for hours, then a God almighty roar.
Frankie kicked a mine the day that mankind kicked the moon.
God help me. He was going home in June.

I can still see Frankie drinking tinnies in The Grand Hotel
On a thirty six hour rec leave in Vung Tau.
And I can still see Frankie lying screaming in the jungle
'Til the morphine came and killed the bl**dy row.

......................................

The Anzac legends didn't mention blood and guts and tears
And the stories that my father told me never seemed quite real.
I caught some pieces in my back that I didn't even feel.
God help me. I was only 19.

And can you tell me Doctor why I still can't get to sleep.
And why the Channel Seven chopper chills me to my feet.
I've got this rash that comes and goes. Can you tell me what it means?
God help me. I was only 19.

[Richard Ruck]

....and yet in reality today we have the potential available for wholesale slaughter at the touch of a button - and it could be done automatically at long distance without the button-pusher ever actually setting eyes on the bodies, which you would think would make it 'easier' and 'less personal', but we don't do that.

Oh but we do! Cruise missile launched from submarines which can obliterate targets many hundreds of miles away, UAVs whose missiles and bombs can hit named individuals in Afghanistan and Pakistan, under the direction of a bloke sitting in a hut on an airbase somewhere in the U.S.A., etc. We are very good at it!

[Fjgrogan]

I have obviously led a very sheltered life - didn't realise that this happens in reality. If the US are doing this, are we also? Presumably the US have a different attitude to Health and Safety (see topic!) from ours and it obviously doesn't apply to the military! Just how accurate are these things in reality? Does US carelessness about accuracy account for the frequent cases of 'death by friendly fire' that we hear of, and how many more are there that are hushed up, I wonder?

[sejintenej]

Oh but we do! Cruise missile launched from submarines which can obliterate targets many hundreds of miles away, UAVs whose missiles and bombs can hit named individuals in Afghanistan and Pakistan, under the direction of a bloke sitting in a hut on an airbase somewhere in the U.S.A., etc. We are very good at it!

There is book entitled "The Hunter" about the CIA or one of those bodies; they end up with mechanical cockroaches which infiltrate enemy houses etc and also intelligent mechanical "birds" which are launched from thousands of kilometres away in their thousands and kill anything living. Mechanical spiders creep down through the wreckage or into caves to find anyone left alive and then explode - it gets even worse................ and no doubt that is what they are working on.

[loringa]

I have obviously led a very sheltered life - didn't realise that this happens in reality. If the US are doing this, are we also? Presumably the US have a different attitude to Health and Safety (see topic!) from ours and it obviously doesn't apply to the military! Just how accurate are these things in reality? Does US carelessness about accuracy account for the frequent cases of 'death by friendly fire' that we hear of, and how many more are there that are hushed up, I wonder?

I'm afraid that I have had to go in to print before about this but the truth is that the Americans are not careless about targeting and accuracy; there is a widely held misconception that they don't give a d@mn but that is completely unfair. There is nothing clean or precise about war; it is dangerous, difficult, uncomfortable and unpleasant, and people get killed. The only way to avoid casulaties is to avoid conflict. If you embark on this sort of adventure then there is one thing of which you can be absolutely sure, people (your soldiers, the other side's soldiers and a large number of civilians) will die. The fact that the Americans kill more than anyone else is that there are far, far more of them on in theatre; not only that but, unlike most of our European (Italians, Germans and Spanish for example) they are out there, boots on the ground, trying to do what needs to be done. I have been directly and personally involved in some of the debates surrounding the selection of targets in Afghanistan and I can promise you that it is done with a great deal of care and with an absolute determination to avoid innocent casualties. Regrettably, this is extremely hard to achieve but it does not mean that it is done without proper care and diligence. Please, please do not fall in to the trap of stereotyping the US Military as they are sometimes portrayed in anti-war propaganda films from the 1960's.

Incidentally, by far the largest number of Afghan and Iraqi deaths in both theatres were caused by terrorist organisations, Militias and organised criminals rather than the occupying forces.

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

Madre I suppose. Though Chaplain covers both, or does it?

Incidentally it was announced today that the first woman has joined the Red Arrows.

Our Rector is called Pamela --- Rector has a Masculine ring to it, I believe she has the title because we have two C-of-E Churches, in our Parish, but I am unsure --- and I don.t like to ask her !
My Cousin Barbara,--- a Farmer's wife (Who was the first Woman to be Ordained in the Church of Ireland, and drinks beer with me in the local Pub, in Tipperary !) -- Is a Canon -- she has several Churches, but is it a Title of Seniority ?

Guidance please -- ?

[Fjgrogan]

Neill, don't Canons usually belong to cathedrals? And a propos of nothing in particular, where in Tipperary? My grandparents were (one each side) from Tipperary.