Does anyone on this forum go to church?

[Fjgrogan]

Neill, are you saying that the C of E has actually banned the use of KJV? I thought it was just the local vicar here who was so bl**dy-minded! When I was licensed as a Reader I am sure we had to swear not to get involved in services which were not as laid down in the Prayer Book and 39 Articles - an oath which was virtually impossible to maintain in this parish, where the 'main' service has gone a bit happy clappy. With the switch to Common Worship we opted to stick as closely as possible to the previous Alternative services for Communion Services, but I do not remember anybody ever making a ruling on which translation of the Bible was acceptable or otherwise. Mostly we use the NIV. I frequently said in sermons that I am sure God doesn't mind whether we choose to worship in modern parlance or the language of King James and Shakespeare, as long as we do worship. After all, presumably God understands both of them - and, I guess, things like 'The Message'. Nobody ever reprimanded me for it!! (for other things, but not for that!). I still find that the quotes which I know by heart are from the KJV (thanks to Miss West). In fact I moved out of the diocese for a while, and when I returned the vicar refused to accept me back as a Reader, in spite of the fact that the diocesan warden of readers and the local archdeaconry vocations advisor both confirmed my status. Eventually I just stopped going to church! I didn't give up on God - I can (and do) worship alone at home - but I fear God may have given up on me! [The final straw was when said vicar refused to baptise my grandson, and we all had to travel to Finland for a service which was actually performed by a Lutheran priest in the Anglican rite!] The vicar has now moved on and we have an interregnum, where it might have been useful to have another Reader .................

[Chris Blewett]

Regrettably, God, being omniscient, has a choice ----
Since we mortals are not so omniscient, we tend to believe that miracles occur, when we want them to -----

Re the Bish of Durham, and his disbeliefs ---
I was in Ephesus, being shown round "Mary's House" by a Muslim Scholar. He said "As an Archeoligist, I have no proof that Mary lived here -- but the circumstantial evidence of date, area outside the City, John being given care of Mary, and being Bishop of Ephesus, I believe to be pretty substantial !

He also commented on the Bish, who had doubted the Virgin Birth -----

"This is mentioned in the Koran, and therefore, to all true "Believers" must be true"

Can you imagine a "Fatwah" on the Bish ?

Neill


Interestingly when I was in Rome 3 years ago I was lucky enough to be shown round the excavations under the vatican..... and the Archeologists used the same argument for not being 100% certain that the grave and bones found exactly under the Papal altar were those of St Peter!

[icomefromalanddownunder]

Eventually I just stopped going to church! I didn't give up on God - I can (and do) worship alone at home - but I fear God may have given up on me! [The final straw was when said vicar refused to baptise my grandson, and we all had to travel to Finland for a service which was actually performed by a Lutheran priest in the Anglican rite!] The vicar has now moved on and we have an interregnum, where it might have been useful to have another Reader .................

What a truly wonderful Christian attitude said Vicar expressed. His God may have given up on you Frances, but I am very sure that mine hasn't, nor ever will.

I haven't attended a church service for years, and only really miss the singing and the smell of incense, particularly at this time of year. I remain grateful, however, for the lessons and morals I was taught at Sunday School, by my church-attending family, and, of course, at CH. I guess power and control must always have been part of the religious aspects of my life, and that I wasn't aware of it, focusing only on the spiritual and humanitarian aspects. For this I am also grateful - despite now being more synical/aware I can look back fondly at the hours spent helping my Nan polish the church brasses (getting the dried Duraglit residue out of the eagle feathers of the lectern was such a challenge, but excellent practice for five years of cleaning 6's window catches), and the Mother's Day services when all the Sunday School kids were given a small posy of somewhat odorous wild flowers to present to our Mums.

[Fjgrogan]

Ah Mother's Day - technically Mothering Sunday - I remember one such service not so long ago when I was alone in church, and a small child in front of me turned round and gave me flowers, because 'you don't have any children here to give you flowers'. Naturally, I cried! I didn't even know the child. There have been other such occasions - I always seem to get weepy on that particular Sunday.

Another spooky memory - the day I first preached happened to be a Remembrance Sunday (9 November that year), which is always a bit strange for me because our family seems to have lost nobody through wars. As I was nervously waiting to preach, I became aware of the smell of cigarette smoke, and commented on it to the person next to me, although I couldn't see anyone smoking. Only later did I identify the smell - it was the particular tobacco that my late grandfather used to 'roll his own'. He had died many years previously but on 7 November. I felt as though he had been watching over me.

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

I thought that Frances's tale was really saddening, and has stayed with me since I read it.

Such a "Vicar" (From "Vicarious ?) should not be in charge of any church.

We have a female Rector -- Pamela -- whose husband is also ordained, and Chaplain at Wellingborough School, which he believes (Mistakenly) to be the best.
They own a canal boat, on the Kennet and Avon, available to members of the Congregation for holidays.

Now there are some things, with which I disagree with Pamels,---- F'rinstance, trying to appoint a "Director of Music" to liven up services, over the head of the Organist and Choirmaster of some 30 years. --- he resigned and so did the Choir , en bloc ! so we have no one with the present Organist -- who build pipe organs !

I don't miss Incense, although the scent brings back memories of being a little choirboy in a VERY high church which, although "Anglican" had a statue of the Virgin Mary, with a blue lamp !!!

I married a Model, and then a Missionary -- which shows how a man's priorities change, and was, therefore a Baptist, (and "Dunked") for many years, before reverting to C of E.

Despite all these "Adventures" God has certainly blessed me throughout my life, and I am grateful, we change -- but God does not !

One last thing --- the Model ran off with the son of the Vicar who had christened me --- which I thought to be slightly incestuous, so I thumped him !

No No the son --- not the vicar ! ------ "What good did that do ?" -------- "It made me feel better !"

[Fjgrogan]

Neill - 'Judge not, that ye be not judged' (straight from KJV!). When the situation above happened I was concerned that the vicar was behaving out of character, and I said so. It subsequently became clear that he was battling through a disintegrating marriage - he who had always preached the sanctity of marriage, no matter what! In retrospect I was just collateral damage from that situation! Once the news became public and he and his wife separated, he had to continue running a parish where his private life was public knowledge. I wouldn't wish that position on anybody. Somehow he managed to 'survive' for about 18 months before getting a job in another parish. What he did to me destroyed my self-esteem, and I hope fervently that he didn't have a similar effect on anyone else, but I can understand why it happened - we all have human weaknesses (yes, Neill, even the clergy!). I have learned in the last few years to differentiate between what God says, what the vicar says and what the church says - not always the same thing. The vicar seems to have left here taking with him a lot of goodwill, and I hope that his new parish will give him the opportunity of making a new beginning - over many years here he did a lot of good work. He and I did not always see eye-to-eye on everything, but I miss him as a friend.

I think we often expect far too much of our clergy. We are quick to complain about their shortcomings, but often fail to notice the long hours that they work and the pressure of needing to be seen at all times to be doing the right thing. Particularly to those outside the church, the vicar is seen as the public face of the church -that is an enormous burden to bear. It is not surprising that so many of them burn out - I think the sabbatical break should be compulsory. I also think that we church members should be more aware of that and try harder to pull our weight in whatever way we can. Easy to say, but I am very aware that I am no longer even trying to do that!

[DavidRawlins]

Ah Mother's Day - technically Mothering Sunday - I remember one such service not so long ago when I was alone in church, and a small child in front of me turned round and gave me flowers, because 'you don't have any children here to give you flowers'. Naturally, I cried! I didn't even know the child. There have been other such occasions - I always seem to get weepy on that particular Sunday.

In Australia they seem to get the best of both worlds. They celebrate Mothering Sunday during Lent, and later,in June, celebrate Mother's Day (the American usage).

[icomefromalanddownunder]

[quote="DavidRawlins".[/quote]

In Australia they seem to get the best of both worlds. They celebrate Mothering Sunday during Lent, and later,in June, celebrate Mother's Day (the American usage).[/quote]

I seem to be living in a different country to the Australia that has been talked about on the forum recently.

No-one I know (other than myself) had heard of Mothering Sunday, or knew it's origin/purpose. The only celebration experienced since leaving UK has been the false/commercial one.

[Fjgrogan]

I found a few years ago that if I 'played my cards right' I could celebrate twice - the traditional English Mothering Sunday, which falls on the fourth Sunday in Lent, and then Mother's Day in Finland on the second Sunday in May - and in between I had a birthday - how's that for planning!!

PS - An apology - when I find myself preaching on the forum it is clearly time to drop out again!!

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

Frances -----Mia maxima culpa (Brought up Very High Church, with a statue of the Virgin, and a blue lamp !)

I'm truly sorry if I was "Judgemental"-- but I didn't have all the information which you have now supplied.

I belong to a "Compass" group, in our church, which is for advice to people recently divorced or bereaved.

We have, recently given each other, a list of things NOT to say --- eg.
"You'll soon get over it"
"Get a Pet"
"You'll be better off, without Him/Her --(Divorces)
"Time to start a new life !"

We should just listen -- or stay silent, until the person wants to talk.

My contribution is usually "Technical", having been a CAB advisor, for many years,
eg. In case of deaths, whom to notify, Probate, dealing with Undertakers, Bank Accounts, etc.etc.
Divorces ---Joint Accounts, Investments, Homes, Property, debts --etc.

I am not, usually, considered to be a sensitive sort of bloke, but when my first wife ran off, I just sat in a park and cried.
Years later, (And married to TBA) when I heard that she had died of Cancer, I cried again.
TBA said "And so you should !"

[Fjgrogan]

Neill (and anyone else who might be interested) - I believe that just listening is a very important form of ministry in its own right. I would have liked it to form a major part of my ministry as a Reader. Anyone who really knows me would be surprised to hear me say that, because I am known to talk too much, probably because these days I spend a lot of time alone, so when I get the chance to talk it is hard to shut me up. Often the most effective counsellors are those who listen a lot and say very little. That is why the Samaritans do such a wonderful job. In an age of mobile phones, iPods etc, many of us forget to make space for silence in which to listen. The traditional 'cry for help' is just wasted effort if you know that there is nobody who will hear it!

[Angela Woodford]

But rules is rules, in the C of E !

This statement fills me with anxiety.

My FIL died on Wednesday, and we will be going back to Devon and talking to a vicar about our funeral wishes on Tuesday. I know perfectly well that my FIL would want a traditional funeral service. What on earth will I say if the Vicar is obliged to conduct the latest modern rite? There'll be many old soldiers and elderly people there.

Oh no! Oh no!

Sorry to hear of your loss Angela.

Just tell the vicar, that you want a traditional Funeral Service. I cannot believe that he would refuse !
If he does not agree, but wants to be "Trendy" ----- is there another church ?

Back from Devon. It does have to be St Peter's, Zeal Monachorum, as my MiL is buried there and he once booked the plot next to hers.

However, the Vicar is a really smashing woman. She talked us through the "modern" service, and actually it seemed really lovely and with enough traditional touches and language to keep the beauty of the funeral rites. I feel really pleased!

The undertaker as well - kind and understanding. Everything discussed calmly and with compassion and consideration.

Then we went into a small room to see the body.

I don't know about the work of the undertaker. What had they done to him?

My red-faced, furious, rampaging, indignant, confrontational, military FiL had been transformed to a peaceful serene pale-with-a-touch-of-pink-complexioned noble creature. I'd never seen him look so handsome. It was amazing.

(And SO much younger. I think I'll book an appointment.)

[sejintenej]

(And SO much younger. I think I'll book an appointment.)

Don't you dare

[kerrensimmonds]

Coming back to Alan (and without wishing to denigrate Angela and her experiences as she dispatched her Father in Law) - I would say that as a student of Theology and Philosophy, all those years ago, I found myself entranced by Don Cupitt and the Sea of Faith. And my most successful essay related to the work of the similarly so-inclined John McQuarrie who would have found sympathy with the then Bishop of Durham. As I said at the time to people in my church....I can no longer believe that a Virgin gave birth to a child. I am comfortable with that, in terms of bilical exegesis, and I have my own view of the 'historical Jesus'. If the mythology works for them, then I am happy for them. But it no longer works for me and I have found my own way through to faith as a result. I did not expect the immediate outcome - the good ladies gathered round me, clasped hands, and prayed out loud that I would refind my unquestioning faith. OOh dear! I later wrote a thank you letter, signing it 'from a cheerful heretic'!
I bet Neill will now tear me to shreds....

[jhopgood]

I have been interested in the Society of Friends for many years but have only recently taken the initiative to go to a meeting and start some of their internet courses. I have a pretty good fit with most of their ideals.
It does mean that I don't go to church unless it is to accompany someone who wants to go.
My mother, who has just turned 90, but she doesn't know it, converted to the RC church in her 60's having been a strong Anglican all her life. She was in fact following in the steps of her brother, who did it at a much earlier age.
He lived in front of an Anglican church (St Peter's, Ropley), went to church there every day, and at his funeral (held at St Peter's), both RC and Anglican priests were present. He is buried there which, since he was RC, I found curious.
Unfortunately we didn't ask my mother about her funeral arrangements before she had her stroke, but I feel she would like something similar to her brother's. Now to see if we can arrange it when the time comes.