Roger Martin

[CodFlabAndMuck]

gosh that's just awful it just gets worse and worse, When? Was this Shippen's time or before.

Same year he left so 83 or 84, I cant remember which.
Bizarre times

And yet his brief, in mitigation, said that he never had contact with children again after leaving the school.
Of course my memory may be deceiving me.
I wasnt in the scouts and if what I have said is incorrect then I apologise but Im pretty sure I am correct.
Maybe someone else around at the time can comment?

[scrub]

I'm fairly sure this has been covered before by others who were at CH around the same time as me, but anyway.

I was in the scouts in my first year or two (can't remember when I left) and went on a summer camp/Norfolk Broads trip. Shippen was the scout master at that time. I was on Dobbie's boat on the broads and there was some odd bloke who got really upset if you called his boat a barge. According to the descriptions other people have given, that bloke may well have been Burr, but I just knew him as that odd bloke who kids loved to wind up by calling his boat a barge.

I can't remember if this is my hazy memory of two separate scout trips, or whether it was just the one trip that involved camping and boating. I'm sure there's a bunch of other people who'd make better sense of it all.

The things I do clearly remember are learning to shoplift, playing every scout's favourite game "will it burn?", and that odd bloke with a barge shouting at me for tossing a mooring rope in the river without checking if one end was tied to something first. It wasn't. He really didn't like me after that

[Great Plum]

Scrub - you are confusing two previous members of staff.

Burr certainly was at Welford in 93 with his barge - he was the one who got upset if you called it that.

There was another ex teacher that helped on the Broads called mr Snook - he used to wind Shippen up by overtaking him in his yacht etc!

[CodFlabAndMuck]

Interesting
Entirely possible then that Webb did go on a trip after leaving, particularly as he probably still knew Burr

[scrub]

Plum - Seems like I'm mixing two different trips up then. I left scouts well before 93, but the "it's not a barge!" bloke was definitely on one of the trips I was on.

Snook was a CDT teacher during my 2nd/3rd form and he was also on the Broads trip I went on. He was the most brusque teacher I remember at CH, hilariously so when you were an onlooker. I do recall he liked to go as fast as possible in his yacht and, remembering him as I do, annoying Shippen would have been an added bonus for him.

[bakunin]

I remember Snook. He was an assistant Housemaster in Mid B. Always seemed in a bad mood and annoyed with the school (perhaps disgusted?) Maybe the reasons for his disgust were related to certain other teachers on the scout trips... Pure speculation though.

[scrub]

Some people's natural state of being is preternatural crankiness, that said he seemed to enjoy his work (making things, not necessarily the teaching ), sailing and wine.

[TMF]

From:

http://www.chforum.info/php/viewtopic.p ... 3&#p141333

..., Webb turned up on Scout Summer camp as a helper in July 1984, staying on Burr's narrowboat that was moored next to the campsite. Burr was there for a few days as well. I am not aware of anything happening at this time, but it was after he had left the school's employment.

Webb 'left' in February 1984 - Burr had 'left' in 1975 - yet someone (or some people) thought these trips would be a good idea. This was after Baker's letter had noted 'behavior' problems for Webb and the 'topic' had even appeared in the newspaper.

Webb's 'brief' says that he never 'worked' with children again not that he had no further contact with children.

So we know from the above that Webb and Burr were given access to children as 'helpers' by school staff, even after 'leaving' because of complaints.

We also know that these trips typically involved alcohol and we know that Webb later recognized the 'disinhibiting effect' of alcohol on his actions.

I suppose that some coordination must have been required e.g. for Burr and Webb to show up at the right place(s) at the right time(s) to be 'helpers'.

'Sudden departure syndrome' seems to have had a gentle secondary Indian summer phase after the shock of the initial 'sudden departure' ...

[CodFlabAndMuck]

From:

http://www.chforum.info/php/viewtopic.p ... 3&#p141333

..., Webb turned up on Scout Summer camp as a helper in July 1984, staying on Burr's narrowboat that was moored next to the campsite. Burr was there for a few days as well. I am not aware of anything happening at this time, but it was after he had left the school's employment.

Webb 'left' in February 1984 - Burr had 'left' in 1975 - yet someone (or some people) thought these trips would be a good idea. This was after Baker's letter had noted 'behavior' problems for Webb and the 'topic' had even appeared in the newspaper.

Webb's 'brief' says that he never 'worked' with children again not that he had no further contact with children.

So we know from the above that Webb and Burr were given access to children as 'helpers' by school staff, even after 'leaving' because of complaints.

We also know that these trips typically involved alcohol and we know that Webb later recognized the 'disinhibiting effect' of alcohol on his actions.

I suppose that some coordination must have been required e.g. for Burr and Webb to show up at the right place(s) at the right time(s) to be 'helpers'.

'Sudden departure syndrome' seems to have had a gentle secondary Indian summer phase after the shock of the initial 'sudden departure' ...

Well spotted TMF and very pertinent observations

[CodFlabAndMuck]

From:

http://www.chforum.info/php/viewtopic.p ... 3&#p141333

Webb's 'brief' says that he never 'worked' with children again not that he had no further contact with children.

Thank you for the correction

[wurzel]

Question I have no idea on the answer to

What control over CH Scout pack did CH School/foundation have ? I know the leaders were teachers and it was based in the scout hut by the manual/CDT school but in terms of governance risk assessments etc was there any cross over or was it a totally separate body ?

[TMF]

I am afraid - I do not know about the organization of the scouts.

Roger Martin taught at the Starehe school in Kenya. This school was modeled after Christ's Hospital, corporal punishment, etc.

https://academic.oup.com/past/article/233/1/227/2915153

[Foureyes]

"What control over CH Scout pack did CH School/foundation have ?"

I may be able to help a little bit, but need to explain my involvement. I was never a member of the Scouts, but became peripherally involved over Barclay Hankin's Will. In brief, he was an Old Blue and somewhat eccentric (now there's a surprise!) and had amassed a fortune of some £1.25million. He died in 2007 and after numerous personal bequests, the remaining £900,000 was divided into 100 shares. 25 shares (£225,000) went to C.H. to kickstart the Army Foundation and a further 25 shares went to the Scouts Association, of which £45,000 was to go specifically to the C.H. Scout Troop.

My interest at the time was in the Army Foundation and apart from noting the bequest to the C.H. Scouts left it at that. Some years later, however, (probably about 2012-13) I became aware that the Head Master (Franklin) intended to disband the C.H. Scout troop, which he declared to be moribund. I was surprised as the injection of £45,000 only 3-4 years previously should have provided some benefits. I therefore enquired of the then Clerk what had happened to Barclay's gift but was told that it had never come near C.H. as the C.H. Troop was self-administering and came under the Scout Association for administration, training, finance, etc. Thus, Barclay;'s £225,000 went to the HQ of the Scout Association and they were responsible for sub-dividing it as he had requested. In other words, as far as I could establish, that particular element of Barclay's bequests went to the Scouts Association and not to C.H.

I found the organisation of the Scout Association almost as impenetrable as that of C.H. but my impression was that the C.H. Scout Troop was answerable to the local branch of the scouting association (Sussex?). So, I presume that campsites, programmes, conduct of the camp, travel to and from, behaviour at, and so on were the responsibility of the Scouts and not of the school. (This would be similar to the CCF, where the school contingent is responsible to and administered, funded and equipped by the Ministry of Defence.)

Does that help or have I just muddied the water (again)?
David

[sejintenej]

"What control over CH Scout pack did CH School/foundation have ?"

I may be able to help a little bit, but need to explain my involvement. I was never a member of the Scouts, but became peripherally involved over Barclay Hankin's Will. In brief, he was an Old Blue and somewhat eccentric (now there's a surprise!) and had amassed a fortune of some £1.25million. He died in 2007 and after numerous personal bequests, ............................d a further 25 shares went to the Scouts Association, of which £45,000 was to go specifically to the C.H. Scout Troop.

Unless CH Scout Troop acknowledged receipt I would have thought it reasonable for the executors to demand evidence such as a receipt signed by the scoutmaster that the £45,000 actually went into the bank acount of CH Scout Troop.
As an executor myself I have always required a signed receipt as well as the paid cheque and the rare time when I have been a beneficiary I have had to give a written receipt; it protects the executor against claims of malfeasance.

[Foureyes]

A fair point, but that was none of my business and I certainly was not an executor. I was interested in the Army Foundation as it applied to C.H. I only knew about the money for the C.H. Scouts because I had a copy of Hankin's Will and saw it mentioned. But, as I said in the previous post, the money was handled within the Scout Association channels so I backed off.
Whether, or not, any of it reached the C.H. Scout Troop I do not know and if it did and there was any left when Franklin disbanded the troop I have no idea what happened to that, either - that, too, was Scout Association business.
David