Excuse my ignorance but....

huggermugger · Post by **huggermugger** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:31 pm

Why are the year groups at CH called such unusual names ? I'm not even sure I know what they all are... and just who was Erasmus anyway?? Why was one bigger than the other?? And what about the Grecians?? Are Greeks known for being older, wiser & more responsible than, say, the Romans? After all, Plutarch thought they were both noble.... (OK, I Googled that bit).

I realise they're classical allusions or at least some of them are and I fear I'm showing my lack of a solid education ....

But I do think I should be told...

Foureyes · Post by **Foureyes** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:28 pm

OK. First, who was Erasmus? The best potted desription is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus.

The forms named "Greater..." and "Lesser Erasmus" date back to at least 1690 and may be of even earlier origin. They are NOT named in honour of the Dutch philosopher Erasmus himself, but because they had to study books written by him in those particular years.

The term "Grecian" dates back to the very berginning of the school and was applied to the very small number of boys, the intellectual elite, who were considered likely to get to university (specifically, Cambridge) and who, therefore, had to study Greek. There were only a very few at a time - perhaps two or three in each year - and they wore special garments (as they do now) and had special privileges. The split of Grecians into specialisations, such as Maths, Science, History, etc - is a comparatively recent development.

The other forms - Third Form, Lower/Upper Fourth and Deputy Grecians - were added later.

midget · Post by **midget** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:08 pm

Thank you Foureyes, and alsu Huggermugger for asking.

blondie95 · Post by **blondie95** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:09 pm

ahhhh i see had a dad who has taught at school for 10 years and I had NO idea

englishangel · Post by **englishangel** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:31 am

your ignorance is excused, very few of us knew either. I knew the Grecians bit but not all the rest.

Why it starts at the second form I have no idea.

there used to be a Prep school, starting at nine which would have given two years younger than second form so that doesn't work either.

Back in the mists of time on this forum is a discussion on the names of years (cos we girls were different and changed in the late 60's) but no explanations on WHY the boys years were so called.

Katharine · Post by **Katharine** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:09 am

When did the term First Parting Grecians go? To my shame I can't remember whether it was current in my father's time or my brother's but I do remember it being mentioned at home.

huggermugger · Post by **huggermugger** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:40 am

Well, thank you foureyes, for an enlightening & informative reply. Having read the bigraphy of Erasmus there is a part of me that wishes the children still studied him - what an extraordinary, tolerant and wise man. I learnt a huge amount from that article. And he was the originator of one of my father's favourite phrases (which came back to me across the years..) "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king"

I have been told that CH starts at Second Form because there used to be a first form but then they started taking the boys later (To conform with the secondary system perhaps?) and so did away it. To change all the years would have presumably meant them being called the same for two years running, I think... which would not have been popular, methinks.

englishangel · Post by **englishangel** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:49 am

viewtopic.php?t=707&highlight=lower+ivth

This probably doesn't answer your query but it should enlighten you a little. No wonder we are confused sometimes.

AndrewH · Post by **AndrewH** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:52 am

Katharine wrote:When did the term First Parting Grecians go? To my shame I can't remember whether it was current in my father's time or my brother's but I do remember it being mentioned at home.

I seem to remember hearing it in the '70s. At that time some boys stayed on beyond A levels to do Oxbridge exams, either in one or four terms. They were then Grecians for more than one year (up to two and a term), First, Second & Third Parting being used to distinguish between them.

Katharine · Post by **Katharine** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:10 pm

Thanks, Andrew - I was one who stayed on after A levels to take Oxbridge exams, we were called Senior VI, not nearly so exotic!

huggermugger · Post by **huggermugger** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:53 am

englishangel wrote:viewtopic.php?t=707&highlight=lower+ivth

This probably doesn't answer your query but it should enlighten you a little. No wonder we are confused sometimes.

You're confused! Newbies just go under! However, it does give our (CH) children the opportunity to roll their eyes and despair of us..

But I do feel a bit further forward in the (somewhat tortuous) initiation process.

Ajarn Philip · Post by **Ajarn Philip** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:08 am

huggermugger wrote:But I do feel a bit further forward in the (somewhat tortuous) initiation process.

But once you're initiated, there is no escape...

Foureyes · Post by **Foureyes** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:27 pm

huggermugger wrote:I have been told that CH starts at Second Form because there used to be a first form but then they started taking the boys later (To conform with the secondary system perhaps?) and so did away it

I am not certain that that is correct, but have no documentary proof. My recollection of my own era (48-55) is that up to about 1953 the succession went: Third Form, LE, UF, GE, Deps, Grecians. Then, in about 1953-ish they introduced the Fifth Form, which was either between UF and GE, or between GE and Deps, I forget which, and I have no idea why it was invented. I am, however, pretty certain that we started on the Third Form.

Don't forget that from 1902 to the mid-1980s (?) there was a Prep School at the Horsham end of the Avenue, which took boys aged from about 8/9 to 11/12. It may be that in those days the Prep counted as the First and Second forms, but I am not sure.

It would make a fascinating study as to the form structure over the years and the reasons for the changes, some of which may have been internal, others, as huggermugger suggests, to adapt to external prtessures.

cstegerlewis · Post by **cstegerlewis** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:03 pm

Foureyes wrote:Don't forget that from 1902 to the mid-1980s (?) there was a Prep School at the Horsham end of the Avenue, which took boys aged from about 8/9 to 11/12. It may be that in those days the Prep counted as the First and Second forms, but I am not sure.

Prep must have gone in late sixties/early seventies. No sign of it (other than the name Prep Block) when I started in 82, and no-one I knew had any knowledge of it.

However there was definitely a Lower Fourth after LE but before UF at some point, whetehr it was the same year group split I am not sure, but in he eighties there were still books with names and LF in them.

The Parting Grecians stopped in about the mid eighties, around the same time as the girls came. In the last couple of years they had a house on the west end of the avenue, which became Elizabeth Cairncross' when she started as Deputy Head.

MKM · Post by **MKM** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:28 pm

When I joined Hertford in 1965, the years were:
2nd Form (10+)
3rd Form
Lower 4th
Upper 4th
Lower 5th
Upper 5th (O levels taken at the end of this year)
Lower 6th
Upper 6th (A levels)
Senior 6th (For those taking Oxbridge entrance after A levels).

This was the last year in which there was a 2nd form. The year before there had been a first form, taking 8+.

At some point we changed to numbering the years as 1-5 up to O levels, followed by Lower and Upper 6th. I don't remember when girls stopped staying on into the Senior 6th.

The first year of the new names, one year was called "The Remove", to avoid any suggestion that girls were repeating a year. I can't remember, or work out, which year group became the remove.